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pageThis document contains posts 285-441 from the Anthony Thomas Quick Topic discussion board. Posts are in reverse order. To follow the conversation, read from bottom to top.
LOL 441
06-23-2001 12:16 AM
Well CB, it might surprise you to know that that is NOT what "Raju" actually said. "Raju" said something highly different. Methink you are reading the WRONG version of "Raju's" word which are transcribed and changed by the editors of SS to suit their insiduous purposes. If "Raju" so hated the Internet, "Raju" would not bless the official websites of India and the UK would he now?
Sort yourself out mate.
Cock & Bull 440
06-22-2001 11:46 PM
Premaswaroopalara LOL
Actually its a sheer waste of time for you to tell us that we are wasting our time. In fact Raju's devotees should not even be indulging in the internet as per Raju's directive, but then most of the people out there are in PN are satisfying their personal urges, so poor Raju is only a glorified being, as people continue to do what they want to do and nobody in their hearts of heart believe him.
LOL 439
06-22-2001 11:35 PM
As an addendum to what I was saying earlier, the simple fact that shows that there is nothing new to see is the websites.
Both the sites of Keenan Alethia and Afshin Khorramshahgol are down, and I see a small discussion occurred to see if anyone possesed any hard copies of cached pages. Why?
YOU HAVE NOTHING NEW, as Hiawatha said, and therefore you want to discuss and read the same old tired disgusting things again and again. Sheer waste of time.
Cock & Bull 438
06-22-2001 10:20 PM
No problem if sites are down.Shirdi Sai Baba's spirit is never down. Raju will be killed by lies, deceit, and black magic that he has been practicing for so long. Anyway there is one new forum http://www.delphi.com/fuzzyhair
So,premaswaroopalara Shirdi will come to our rescue even if Raju devotees are paying off people to down anti-Raju sites.
Moving Along 437
Anthony, Cock & Bull, Christolina, and all the forgotten ones.
Your journey is at an end. Rest In Peace. It's all over.
LOL 436
06-22-2001 09:50 PM
Well Genevieve, this is not a competition about who knows more than who and other childish games.
For your information, I myself know quite a few firsthand details of what goes on in PN through direct experience. I left because I became sick of all the corruption and nepotism that goes on there. I left the Org before all this abuse stuff came out, which is not even true. You sure need to catch up, lady, as do all of you.
And by the way, since you speak of firsthand experience, it is pretty obvious that you admit to having a repressed sexuality.
And don't think I don't know who you are. You are an individual who is posting under various aliases. Genevieve, CB and Luvdeglobal are one and the same.
Cock & Bull 435
06-22-2001 09:47 PM
Premaswaroopalara LOL,
Maybe when you have your "Mooladara Chakra Aligned " by Raju,i am sure you will be in ecstacy and be further deluded. Raju devotees want to be cheated so there is no cure for your obsession.
Genevieve from PN 434
06-22-2001 07:59 PM
Not speculation, dear LOL. First-hand from residents. And I do mean FIRST-HAND. Sorry to disappoint you. Someday you too will know first-hand many interesting facts from Prashanti Nilayam. But for now you can get them second hand from Cock & Bull and Genevieve.
LOL 432
06-22-2001 06:38 PM
I'm afraid that Tony O'Clery is lying. I have it on authority that he repeeatedly stated that he believed ALL of David Icke's ideas, anow says that he doesn't. Hmm.. Marswalker 431
06-22-2001 03:18 PM
Dear all,
Previous posts including 14656 and 15245 of Dr Lane's club pointed out red flags in Hislop's book, "Conversations with Bhagavan Sri Sathya Sai Baba." We know the book is sold and touted at Prasanthi Nilayam.
For example, on p. 164, Sai states, "In all the universe there is no other planet that has human life, or a similar life-form..."
In contrast, please note the following extract from an informal talk by Paramahansa Yogananda, "Beholding the One in All", SRF 1985, Cassette No 2012:
"We are on this little ball, floating in space with infinite ether around it. We must realize why we don't go off, why the ocean doesn't fall apart, when the earth is going through two motions. We must realize that we are the product of a vast intelligence, inconceivably big, but the ocean is in the drop and the ocean is made of the drop - so we are little compared to the vast universe around us, AND THIS ISN'T THE ONLY EARTH - this isn't the only universe. Many universes are floating like islands in the great vast sphere of my Father's Presence. So we must remember that we did not make our own intelligence. That intelligence is only a borrowed gift from the Cosmic Intelligence, and to Forget Him is the greatest folly..."
Concerning this subject, on May 9, 2001, one of the largest and most successful press conferences in recent history of the National Press Club, Washington D.C. was completed. The URL: http://www.disclosureproject.org gives information about this and relates testimony disclosing the greatest covet program in world history, in my opinion.
Please use discrimination. Remember Hislop was touted as spending more time in private interviews with ssb than anyone else in the world!!!
Love, MarsWalker
430
06-22-2001 11:37 AM
Deleted by topic administrator 06-22-2001 03:26 PM Andries 429
06-22-2001 06:35 AM
Dear all,
If there is anyone who has big problems with losing faith in SSB or leaving the SSB org then you can consider to join this group. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ex-cult-support
Kind regards, Andries
Tony O'Clery 428
06-21-2001 04:40 PM
If you took Icke back to the Ramayana and all the shape shifters, or to Atlantis where the 'sons of belial', won the day over the Adamics, he would fit in well. I don't know whether he is about fear or warnings. Where did all the shape shifters and Belialians go to anyway????????hahahahahahahahahahahaAre they hiding down at the Masonic Hall???????
Seriously though, I don't get into gurus anymore, I have something negative on all the roadshow gurus.
Anthony 427
06-21-2001 01:33 PM
Hi Tony I actually meant I didn't direct devotees to his site that are looking for the truth re 'sb.' Rightly or wrongly, I feel that if those people see a site that seems to be attacking everything, the value of what that site may say about 'sb', loses its value. Also I feel are very vulnerable and already in fear enough at the thought of leaving 'sb' and Icke really does promote a lot of fear. I have no doubt that many people are left feeling unempowered and in apathy because it is often portrayed as a big issue.
I feel we lose credibility also if anyone goes on a binge of attacking other gurus on our message board. Don't you feel that lessens the credibility of what we say? I do, but perhaps it is only because I would. I wonder how others feel about this.
Tony O'Clery 426
06-21-2001 11:53 AM
Anthony. I am not a David Icke follower and yes the Queen Mum as a shape-shifter reptile is amusing. However because of the fact he gets millions of hits, his site is a good one. Also because of the nutty stuff on there the intelligence orgs of most large countries keep an eye on the site. So posting there has the effect of informing a lot of people and governments too. This doesn't happen with private sites like sbguru etc, because people have to be directed there and the volume gets nothng like Icke does because of his high profile. It is a matter of logic that's all, exposure exposure exposure. One doesn't have to agree with the entire paper to put an article in it. It gets out anyway!!! If you don't direct people to Icke that's fine, but aren't you doing their thinking for them? The bottom line he gets the hits!!!or this about personal sites?
MarsWalker108 425
06-21-2001 11:13 AM
Questor,
Please read your own message #338. This should answer your question or was someone trying to impersonate you in that post?
Love,
MarsWalker108
Questor 424
06-21-2001 08:49 AM
Marswalker;
I am wondering why you addressed that last post to me.
Alexandra 423
06-21-2001 03:29 AM
Two more websites:
http://geocities.com/the_sai_critic
go to 'Summary of The Findings' and one can on the bottom of that page download The Findings version March 24, 2000. It's the version which does NOT carry Hans de Kraker's story, because that got added in May 2000.
http://www.iae.nl/users/lightnet
go to 'religion' section and from there to 'Sai' and scroll down. About halfway it has a link with the section that was on saibabaguru.com carrying the links to the several published articles.
Good luck surfing!
Anthony 422
06-21-2001 01:46 AM
Alexandra
Thank you for this. I had a look. Very helpful.
Tony
While ever I understand that David Icke has the right intention, is a great speaker and I like him as a person, unfortunately he prints lots of stuff that he gets from other people and ends up with a total conspiracy involving just about everything and everyone. For this reason, I have never been compelled to direct anyone to his site. Whereas it is possible for most people to accept the idea of conspiracies in govt, financial world, arms, etc. he so far oversteps the mark, that he looks nuts and loses the credibility he could have. Shame, because he could have done so much more to really help. I think the English Queen Mother being a reptile really did it. So, I think we need a diffferent source to direct people to The Findings. I don't see how you can get 'sbguru' up when we are getting a 'this site is closed' with a gaelic symbol on the board. Do you have a divine link that we do not!!!
Alexandra 421
06-21-2001 12:39 AM
Edited by author 06-21-2001 12:44 AM
A lot of the material that was on saibabaguru.com is also available on
http://www.sekty.net/Data/Materialy/Baba/ebabamenu.php
It are the English sites of a Polish organisation on cults. The Findings are underneath on the opening page, and NOT are listed as The Findings; the chapters are seperately given.
Tony O'Clery 420
06-20-2001 05:01 PM
http://www.davidicke.net/emagazine/vol12/vol12menu.html
Yes it is still there. Icke's website has been attacked recently and had to be reconstituted so did the child abuse web as well. I don't agree with him on lots of things, but he is the only guy that has the guts to print anything from lunacy to conspiracy and he gets millions of hits. A brave man indeed...A little weird but brave...Tony
Tony O'Clery 419
06-20-2001 04:54 PM
saibabaguru site is still up for me? If you have a problem with the 'Findings', the first time it was on the net was when I put it on davidicke emagazine. It is still there no doubt, I think volume twelve....Tony.
Anthony 418
06-20-2001 03:35 PM
Terrie
I have emailed keenan re reinstating board and also access to the material. No respose as yet
Terrie 417
06-20-2001 01:11 PM
Durga, please use another alias. The Mother Goddess and I are friends. She's our protector and refuge.
Andries 416
06-20-2001 06:31 AM
Historical Parallels, Jimmy Baker's PTL or Ramakrishna according to Kali's Child ?
I have been looking for historical parallels.
I thought of Jimmy Baker's 'Praise The Lord' Organization from the USA. There were allegations with regards to sex about Jimmy Baker, money fraud. There were allegedly miraculous healings too. The whole organization collapsed I heard.
Another historical parallel that I thought of was Ramakrishna Parmahamsa who was a homosexual according to the book Kali's child.
Does anyone know more about this? Or does anyone know better historical parallels? Thanks in advance
Kind regards, Andries.
Durga 415
06-20-2001 03:31 AM
Yes something HAS happened Terrie. See if you can figuire it out. The tide has reversed.
Your life is like a dead tree in winter. You have no luck.
Anthony,... Tis better to keep you mouth shut and be thought a fool, then to open it and remove all doubt.
Anthony 414
06-20-2001 02:36 AM
Terrie,
I can't get them either. I have an email address for keenan so will try and see what has happened.
Terrie 413
06-19-2001 06:33 PM
Edited by author 06-19-2001 06:38 PM
Uh, oh.h.h. For two days I've tried to go to saibabaguru.com. There's a little symbol on a blank page and the message is, "This site is down."
Does anyone know anything about this?
Has anyone saved postings from saibabaguru.com?
I can't get The Findings to load either. It starts to load and then stalls out. Is this just my computer, or is this happening to everyone??
Said Khorram 412
06-19-2001 01:45 PM
Edited by author 06-19-2001 01:47 PM
Anthony, thanks a million for your kind words, you have no idea how much it means to me.
CB, yes, I just found out that he is back to PN too. Thanks for updating me.
Cock & Bull 411
06-19-2001 01:32 PM
Raju is back in his den at PN.Looks like Krishna will lose his CM post.Wherever this Raju goes he creates trouble to the people in power.
Said Khorram 410
06-19-2001 01:30 PM
Deleted by author 06-19-2001 01:30 PM
Anthony 409
06-19-2001 01:25 PM
Marswalker
Thank you for mentioning it. I am well aware this happens and I think we all need to be on guard not to enter into much handling of such ploys. I guess I should have mentioned it. So easy to draw people into defending themselves and then we get sidetracked from the job at hand.
Your post......(Ask enough questions about a person. Space the questions out. Cause the questions to be asked by different confederates (or the same person parading under different aliases)... What we then have is plenty of information by which to, for example, spam. Or attack someone's website. Or embark on campaigns, on and off the Net, of harrassment.)
Hi Said
Thank you for all you have done also. There are so many people around who really care. It is an honour to be connected with such lovely people. United we stand.
Said Khorram 408
06-19-2001 01:14 PM
This LOL guy is probably the same Tata Patel guy who is on a hateful crusade to "expose" me because I threw him out of my club. Anyhow, LOL, you should go to PN and see that the foreigners are much much less. I have several sources who are without a doubt much more trustworthy than any devotee. This has been confirmed by a shopkeeper at PN too.
Also, I know that sai baba is in Whitefield now, even there, there are little foreigners.
MarsWalker108 407
06-19-2001 11:30 AM
Edited by author 06-19-2001 11:34 AM
Dear Questor and All,
A number of Sai Devotees have asked about the author of the Letter to My Former Whitefield college Students.
Clearly, the important issues are already raised in the letter. Why these questions about whether the author is an EHV teacher, whether he has a computer, and so forth?
One of the noticeable characteristics - unfortunately noted in some persons from both the pro Sathya Sai Baba AND the former devotee side is sidestepping issues, and going off onto tangents(MarsWalker admits he may also be guilty - fortuanately this board is moderated).
Ask enough questions about a person. Space the questions out. Cause the questions to be asked by different confederates(or the same person parading under different aliases)... What we then have is plenty of information by which to, for example, spam. Or attack someone's website. Or embark on campaigns, on and off the Net, of harrassment.
Since this has already happened, please do not expect all sorts of information to be given out - piecemeal or any other way. Let us avoid, too, such fallacies as argumentation ad hominem - dwelling on details of personality, biography etc., rather than addressing the key issues.
In case of private replies to The Letter to My Former Whitefield College Students, there will be set up a proper procedure, so that those alleging sexual molestation by Sathya Sai Baba will be assured of the greatest privacy. (The very essence of the reason why a number of us involved in the exposure are unable to give out such sensitive details - even though some Sai devotees are deriding us for not producing details about the alleging victims). For those who wish it, there will be made avaiable experience professional sexual abuse counsellors, and legal or other advice.
Love, MarsWalker108
Anthony 406
06-19-2001 02:11 AM
LOL
Surely whether we have new facts or not is irrelevant to your arguement. Personally, I would be very happy if no more poor children came forward with new stories. I would feel very grateful that no more people have suffered at the hands of 'sb'. Unfortunately, I think we will hear a lot more as time goes on - but it is certainly not something I would wish for, and I trust, neither would you!
You completely misunderstood A Sparrow. The feeling was explained as probably coming from one's own devotion and connection to God/the Divine - and not to the false God 'sb'.
Major difference between the two sources, that you don't seem to have noticed yet!!
A Sparrow 405
06-19-2001 01:05 AM
Hey, LOL, do you think someone made that up about what the travel agent said? Did I make it up? Did my spouse make it up? Did the old gentleman who is unaware of this brouhaha make it up? Or did the travel agent .. who doesn't give a poop about who goes to India or why as long as he or she sells tickets ... make it up? Maybe people are streaming into India (to see sb) from every part of the globe except for the one where I live. I'm just reporting what was said.
Frightfully sorry about my pomposity. I was replying to something that Andries had asked. Many, many people have experienced moments like that and lots of them aren't even into any particular kind of spirituality.
Genevieve from PN 404
06-18-2001 08:23 PM
Edited by author 06-18-2001 09:08 PM
To LOL:
The muddy pools exist right in the middle of Prasanthi Nilayam where:
***Long time residents don't change one iota from one decade to the next. PN is frozen in time, an exact radiation of its master.
***The ladies avidly read and exchange trashy romance novels, probably because the poor things don't know what to do with the constant sexual feelings they pick up each day in darshan from their false god.
***Some of these same ladies carry on affairs with Indian men, no doubt for the same reason they read those novels.
***Residents routinely travel out of India as an escape from the boredom of the ashram.
***Residents suffer from bizarre and debilitating illnesses which don't disappear. They have serious and incapacitating accidents which cause much pain and misery. Karma?? I don't think so. The false god says, "I enjoy seeing my devotees suffer." Yes, he really does enjoy that suffering!! It pours even more energy and devotion (in the form of pleas for help) into his coffers.
...the point being here that a false god cannot radiate spiritual light which would promote the health and spiritual development of devotees who live on his doorstep. He can only radiate his own sexual aura, much to the guilty distress of those sensitive enough to absorb vibrations from that aura. And his energy really can cause illness and accidents. Devotees remain devotees at their own peril.
LOL 403
06-18-2001 06:57 PM
Sparrow,
>>There were a couple of times during my dev. days when I had spontaneous moments such as you describe. Not psychedelic or anything, just a feeling of the unity of all. I don't think it was Raju making it happen, but my one pointed devotion. <<
Don't you think that this statement is a little pompous?
Do you even know the MEANING of the words "one-pointed devotion"? I doubt you even know who to show devotion TO, let alone have any.
Sorry if I come across as rather offensive to you, but I honestly feel disgusted at the way that people think that they are responsible for everything, including the non-subscription to the idea that an "outside entity" is NOT responsible for the spiritual experiences we claim we have experienced.
With that logic, you may as well be an atheist.
It is true what Hiawatha says, YOU HAVE NOTHING NEW. All of you people are just wallowing in your own muddy pools describing the same old things over and over and over again until you will become sick of washing yourselves in the same mud and perhaps walk off in search of a new muddy pool.
Sad really, but you have NOTHING new to discuss. What you DO have, or THINK you have, is all a bunch of lies and ignorance. NONE of you have carried out a serious investigation to ANY of the allegations that are going on. Therefore there is NO new proof that ha been unearthed and NOTHING has been done. Nothing WILL be done either.
LOL 402
06-18-2001 06:48 PM
Sparrow, if you honestly believe that, then you will believe anything. Why don't you pay a visit to Prashanthi Nilayam this summer to see how bustling it is?
The people who are against Sai Baba are all fooling around with jokes. It is true what Hiawatha said:
You have NOTHING NEW.
AFTER ALL THESE EXPOSES AND MEDIA COVERAGES, IT IS GETTING HARD TO MAINTAIN THE RAGE. IS THAT NOT SO?
You might have a video with interviews ready to go out to the public, o, my, o, shock-horror.
You have NO NEW FACTS
You have NO NEW DETAILS
You still have NO VERIFICATION of the shock-horror stories attributed to Dr Bhatia. Just seven year old boys, shock horror. O porno avatar of Tony's devotion. What a big nothing. You have NO EVIDENCE OF THIS
So the famous "The Findings" and the great porno avatar of Tony's devotion, are just stories whipped up by more and more gossip and rumor. Hari can whip as many people he wants into a fury, he will get nowhere. Hari and David can co-ordinate all they like, depositions, affadavits, video, handwritten eviedence, tapes. And Hari Sampath may brag he was in ashram security and he has all the facts on the shootings, ha ha, he was never there... and that he was assigned to Gandighar Reddy, the CI of Police at Puttaparhti, who left the police force ... and the problem is Delta is a liar, for CI Reddy is still at Puttaparthi...
No one has new facts
No on has new details.
Tony goes on and on and on about 7 year old boys yet there is NO CORROBORATION FROM BHATIA
HA HA HA TONY YOU ARE A BROKEN RECORD.
This is all old hat and all old hoo-haa. Its getting a bit hard to maintain the old fury and rage. So around and round in circles, faster and faster, getting all the gutter magazines and newspapers AND third rate websites to cover David's fantasies about Royalty, to print the old shock horror gasp, O Sai Baba and boys, O Sai Baba and men.... I tell you what, these men who feed the media with leads could do with a bit of investigation, none of them are Snow White, I can tell you.
Yesontruth, after 12 months, you have NOTHING NEW, nothing to resign over. Timothy Conway had to recant and apologise. You are running out of credible defences. When are you coming back?
AND NOW BARRY PITTARD puts his broken record on the turntable. O Mother Barry of the Universe, there is nothing new under the sun. O Great Co-ordinator, watch what you say about all of this... he saved you from the undertow, remember?
Anthony 401
06-18-2001 02:26 AM
Andries
(...Re a state of unconditional love, awareness that all is 'God/ All There Is' - and the world around us is illusion - or less real than the world above.)
Personally, I believe this is true and possibly what we are all striving for. I think this state can be gained and maintained by everyone with a bit of discipline to live from a spiritual perspective. I think we would need to act according to what feels right for us to do, without also entrenching ourselves in the limited third dimensional view of the world. Then we are living in the natural flow and order of the world. We would probably need to free ourselves of our millions of beliefs and opinions that rule our mind, and so our world. We would need to stay free of hate and criticism and thinking others are less than us in some way. We would need to stop our ideas of loving people only if they behave, believe, or look a certain way. I think the idea is feeling love and compassion for everyone and every life form as a brother and sister, regardless of their acts, race or creed. I think there are people aroound who have attained this. I know lots of people gain it temporarily and lose it because they let themselves agree again to the limited beliefs of the world.
A Sparrow
That is a good bit of news.
A Sparrow 400
06-18-2001 12:19 AM
I have a little story to share. My spouse sometimes gets phone calls with questions about computers from an elderly gentleman who's still a devotee. He doesn't know about the allegations and spouse doesn't want to tell him because he doesn't want to upset him because of his age. Tonight the gentleman called and said something about having spoken to a travel agent about going to India to see sb. Now, I don't know if this was a casual conversation with someone who just happens to be a travel agent by trade, or if he was speaking to him in his actual capacity as a travel agent regarding buying tickets for himself. Doesn't matter, but the ta said, "Hardly anybody's going to India to see [sb] anymore". The acquaintance relayed this to my husband with complete innocence.
So, you see, things are moving.
Marswalker 399
06-17-2001 07:17 PM
Edited by author 06-17-2001 07:22 PM
Hello Everyone,
Here is Part 2 of my notes on ssb's 2000 Christmas discourse. ------------------------------------------
Speaking of the reason for these troubles he says, "Why must they come? This Glory will increase only if they come."
Talking about the future he says, "There is not a single activity that Sai cannot do. He is also able to do things that cause everyone to be amazed."
Please compare the above emotional speech (2 posts)with the following statement of Paramahansa Yogananda from a talk by a direct disciple, Brother Mokshananda, "Remembrance of the Guru," Self- Realization Fellowship 1983, Cassette No. 25 10: (Please note this is not to promote a particular Guru.)
"Daya Mata tells of one time she was attending a dinner with the Guru and they were seated near each other at a table, and at another table some distance away, they heard someone say some mean remarks about Master. And she looked at Master... "How can you stand it?"
And Master reached out and plucked a rose from a vase on the table and he took the petals of the rose and ground them in the palm of his hand and then he gave his hand to Ma (Sri Days Mata) to inhale the fragrance-and he said, "See how this rose is..?.. EVEN WHEN CRUSHED, IT STILL GIVES OFF ITS FRAGRANCE, SO SHOULD WE ALL..."
Consider this: Even in crucifiction Jesus could keep his loving attitude and say, "Father, forgive them, for they know what they do."
The RED FLAG is that S.B. spoke with EGO in the 2000 Christmas speech.
Note the following extracts from a discourse by Mrinalina Mata, direct disciple of Paramahansa Yogananda and SRF monastic, SRF 1978, Cassette No 2402:
"There is one quality you will always find in the true Guru and that is humility-that humility was in Master...."
"I don't think I ever heard Master say, "My disciples"....He would refer to them as "The devotees, but he NEVER said, "My disciples, My work My accomplishments."
"I think that if anyone would ask us who was around Master, æHOW WOULD YOU JUDGE ONE WHO IS TRULY SAINTLY, ONE WHO IS TRULY DIVINE?'.. .I would say that if he has not that humility that I saw manifest in Gurudev--he is still lacking in spiritual accomplishment."
Please consider the above RED FLAGS and remember that Sai Baba says he is Krishna, Rama, and the Father who sent Jesus on Earth!!!
Love, Marswalker
Marswalker 398
06-17-2001 07:04 PM
Edited by author 06-17-2001 07:08 PM
Hello Everyone,
There have been many comments on the Internet concerning the 2000 Christmas speech. Consider some extracts from the Monday, December 25 "Times of India" article:
BANGALORE
(Beginning of Times of India Quote)
Sri Sathya Sai Baba on Monday lashed out at his detractors in a rare display of anger while delivering a discourse on the occasion of Christmas at Brindavan, Whitefield ashram here.
Baba has rarely reacted to criticisms or allegations and this departure was an obvious response to a cover story in a magazine that contained derogatory references to him recently.
One of Jesus' disciples, Judas, betrayed him. "In those days there was one Judas, but today there are thousands," Baba said." (end of Times of India quote)
I've read both the edited versions on the Internet and a verbatim translation from the original Telegu. In my opinion, discrimination and discernment should be used in the approach to this speech. It seems that there are many RED FLAGS.
Sai says, "Hey, how are the works that are being done? Is anyone doing even a thousandth part of it? No, No, No! ONLY ONE, SATHYA SAI BABA. Without looking to his own selfishness, he is acting all for others."
With reference to the new Speciality Hospital, Baba says, "In this state of Karanataka, is even one Minister entering even a tiny bit into works like this?"
When talking about his service he says, "I am teaching free education to so many students."
When talking about bribes to betray the Guru he says, "Betrayal of God is the worst of all betrayals. It will not be atoned no matter how many births are experienced!"
(At this point, I would like to remind you of Baba's well known quote, "Know that whatever happens in this world, this Avatar has willed it so.")
Love,
Marswalker (CONTINUED IN NEXT POST)
A Sparrow 397
06-17-2001 06:33 PM
Andries ... There were a couple of times during my dev. days when I had spontaneous moments such as you describe. Not psychedelic or anything, just a feeling of the unity of all. I don't think it was Raju making it happen, but my one pointed devotion. Yes, that probably is more like real reality than the everyday feeling that most people have. There's a book called "From Onions to Pearls" that's by a guy who achieved an asc after spending some time in prison. It's funny what can trigger stuff like that.
Andries 396
06-17-2001 02:48 PM
Altered State of Consciousness and World View
Dear all,
It is a known fact that a person including SSB devotees can have a temporary altered state of consciousness (asc) after intense sadhana. Sometimes years of preparation are necessary. One aspect of this asc is that the person has a changed world view. She/he feels e.g. a great love towards all beings, and she/he feels that her/his Ishta Devatta (chosen deity) is everywhere and everything and feels that this world is but a dream. When this person comes back to normal consciousness this world view often disappears with the asc. My question to all is this world view during the asc more real, more according to the Truth, than the world view that we have during normal consciousness? In the book by M. about Ramakrishna Paramahamsa one can read that Ramakrishna struggled too with the questions what to think of his own religious experiences. When Ramakrishna conveyed by a single touch an experience of Advaita (all is God) to Narendra who later became known as Vivekananda Narendra had later not doubt that he had experienced the Truth. That was probably because of the intensity of the experience.
Imho we can't value all world views equal. E.g. when I am angry with somebody it is clear that I have a very distorted world view. When the anger has subsided I can see things in a proper perspective again.
(See also message 300 by A Sparrow)
I am very interested to your opinions about this question. Thank in advance.
Kind regards, Andries
Anthony 395
06-17-2001 01:09 PM
Hi Questor
I really meant it. I actually thought it was a sensible idea to say what you did, because some of these comments may really seem nuts to some people. Believe in Atlantis and UFO's must sound way out to some. Doesn't bother me at all. Most of us have some strange beliefs. Some people believe there is a guy in India that is 'God incarnate'!
It is probably a good idea to balance (or blend) intuition with fact - or as close as we can get to fact. Personally I find it tricky to believe a lot of 'fact' because, first of all, the basis has to be correct. Look how much that was qquoted as absolute fact and truth at the time, has been later proved incorrect. I am no expert on all this stuff but what about the orbit of the sun -and the flow of blood around the body. Scientists have been saying for a long time that there cannot possibly be life on other planets because the conditions don't exist anywhere else that could support life. They are assuming that bodies elsewhere would be the same as those on earth and they would need the same conditions - oxygen, etc. I am sure that history books are better than 'so called intuition', but perhaps not better than real intuition maybe?
It is very true that the way to help the devotees is to give them facts that can't be dismissed. I agree wholeheartedly.
Re Atlantis. It is not really important to me who has said it existed or who hasn't or who has revived the idea. It more than feels right to me, and rightly or wrongly, I have to be true to myself. But I couldn't care less if the whole world said I was wrong. I never take offense or worry about such thngs. I have no need for others to agree to my ideas. Who knows, my ideas may be quite wrong! Probably are!
A Sparrow
I love your humour. 'bad carrer move!' Definetely!!
Cock & Bull 394
06-17-2001 12:59 PM
Hi Whatever....
How very Un-clever of you??But then thats quite natural,because you have lost your common sense.
More importantly, I think Raju is so firmly established with the ruling powers in India, that he's immune to prosecution, and will simply continue on as always.
Raju is worshiped as a living god who can profoundly change people's lives, and work miracles, though those are ù to any conjuror's eye ù simple sleight-of-hand, and not even at all well done. But now Raju's followers are seriously divided by allegations, not that the man is a faker, but that he has for years been sexually abusing young male disciples to whom he has paid very special attention.
I've always wondered why these watches ù mostly Seikos ù are materialized bearing serial numbers indicating that they were sold from Japan to a distributor in India, and the rings have cheap lithographed-tin portraits of Raju in a fake gold-colored mount which is invariably represented by the believers to be "pure gold." This man's sleight-of-hand technique is abominable, not worthy of a rank amateur, but he doesn't have to be good, just charismatic.
After all, he's fooling people who have happily suspended their critical faculties and who need to be fooled.
"Vibhuthi" ("holy ash") which turns out on analysis to be powdered ashes of cow dung mixed with incense. Street conjurors in India (jadu-wallahs) perform this trick by preparing small pellets of ashes and concealing them at the base of their fingers, then working their fists to powder the pellets and produce the flow of fine ash.
What is available is a videotape of Raju clumsily trying to produce a necklace for a politician at a public event in Hyderabad, fumbling about under a trophy he is carrying, and almost dropping the "apport" in a really sloppy performance. Despite the faithful trying to suppress this embarrassing tape(taped by Doordarshan, Govt TV), it is widely available.
Middle-class, well-educated, family-oriented, folks who just cannot believe they've been fooled by a clever con-man. Believer's aren't stupid people, just naive individuals with far too much trust in their ability to detect fraud.
It is during darshan that Raju, by some unseen criteria, chooses people from the crowd for private interviews. It appears that those chosen few persons are frequently attractive young men, who thereafter seem to develop an aversion to further selection by Raju.eg Tal Brook,Conny Larson,etc.
I've said it before, and it's still true: no amount of evidence, nor the quality of it, will serve to un-convince the true believer. Their belief is something they not only want, they need it.
What really disturbs me about all this is that Raju is not being criticized for his fakery, his cruelty to believers, his lies, his trickery and deception, but for his peccadillos ù however harmful and reprehensible those are ù that make more newspaper space and are "spicier" than his more far-reaching and criminal acts.
In the USA,we got Al Capone for income-tax evasion, not for murder, and faith-healer W. V. Grant went to prison for income-tax problems, too, not for swindling millions of dollars from innocent victims and removing them from medical care. Where are the priorities here?
Frankly, I care about Raju's sex life,because he preaches to teachers in the school & colleges that he is running, to abstain from sex but on the contrary Raju mastubrates young men in private interviews in the garb of "Kundalini Awakening" and he himself had sex with Parvathamma on 7 July 1945, and I also do care about the millions of people he's bilked, ruined, and betrayed. Classic example is the family of Raja Of Venkatagiri,whose mining business and the cinema theatres Sathyam ,Shivam,Sundaram in Chennai,India went Kaput.
A Sparrow 393
06-17-2001 11:50 AM
It seems that we're meant to be walking on our own two feet now. It feels lonely at first, but we can do it. When people say that we only "see" sb as being sexual because we ourselves are so obsessed with sex, they are so full of it. What is objective fact is objective fact. It's the same old story of letting the blame just slide off the perpetrator of a deed because he or she has some kind of exemption. I've been reading about the Nepalese Royals and how the now deceased king was supposed to be an incarnation of Vishnu. I suppose that Dipendra, the crown prince, would have been an incarnation of Vishnu once he became king, too, had he not murdered his entire family first (bad career move). And the party-animal cousin had killed someone in a hit and run accident once, but he was exempt from prosecution because he too was divine. I wonder which diety he embodied?
In the US there was a South Indian man who had done very well for himself. He owned a lot of real estate and a popular restaurant. He had established some charitable projects in his home town back in India. The people there loved him for it as they were extremely poor and underpriveleged. He was also illegally importing very young girls from the "dalit" class into the US to be sexual companions for himself and his cronies. He also imported people of both sexes to work at what would be called slave labor in his businesses. One of the girls died and that blew the cover on the whole setup. Back in his home town folks (including the parents of the child who had died) said that they saw nothing wrong with what he did as he was a god.
Having done good deeds or having above normal powers of any kind does not erase someones destructive or selfish actions.
One major thing I noticed to be lacking in many devotees even in the days when I was one was common sense, and even raju has said "First common sense; then spiritual sense". I wonder if he really wants us to believe that.
Unfortunately, people w/o common sense are attracted to spiritual movements like moths to a lightbulb. What's important is to maintain a balance between cs and spirituality, not to be like the folks in the story of "The Emperors New Clothes", where all the populace, save one small child, oohed and aahed over the imagined luxurious garb of the emperor, who was in actuality stark naked.
Let's not fall into the trap of thinking that way. It's OK to respect, admire, and learn from others who are "ahead" of us on the path, but making them infallable is a big mistake.
Questor 392
06-17-2001 09:34 AM
Anthony, in response to your comments to me:
Questor.
I think it is good that you state your beliefs. Especially if you think the ideas are crazy and
you want to show that someone here is sane. Quite understandable.
Anthony, it's just a wee bit condescending to say this though I don't think you really *mean* it that way. I am not here to to show that "someone is sane". I have no such intent. I am merely pointing out that there are other viewpoints on this matter. My purpose is to reflect the opinion of myself and possibly of others who may be lurking and presume that we all have the same beliefs.
But I don't think history books are the way to find out the truth, so much distortion to suit the times.
I think that history books can provide a good basis for research and verification of facts and events, and while not perfect, certainly are better and preferable to many people's so-called "intuition".
I think we can know what happened 'back then' by being here now and going within for our answers. If we put aside all our fixed opinions on a subject and have no agenda for a particular outcome - and we truly desire the truth, no matter what that truth may be - then I think we are all capable of a great gift to know things.
Truth is very subjective, but there are certain objective elements too that we should not devalue, such as geological data, and chronological data. I wouldn't advise "going within" until you have all the facts. What is drawing people out of cults and abusive situations is actually looking at the cold, hard facts. And that is why people often need to speak to a victim of the abuse to really believe.
That includes
contemplating on 'sb' and asking oneself is that truly a man of God? We can apply our inner divine gift of knowing to anything. It is not imagination, it is a sort of tuning in to the Universal consciousness, if that doesn't sound too wierd. It is just for our own personal use - and it is certainly very useful to help cruise this path called life. After a while the proof comes easily and you start to trust more and more your inner ability to know what is truth. You can still use all the other methods along with this. Obviously proof is needed to bring someone to court, etc. But it is still very helpful and I think we can all do it.
Yes, let's face it, the "facts" will bring ssb to justice, and nothing less. I have less faith in Universal consciousness, quite honestly. I think the moment you start devaluing the process of seeking the truth through factual knowledge, ie history books and scholarly pursuits, you are in big trouble. I would advocate for a good balance between our own common sense, our intuitive abilities (which I don't devalue but put in perspective), AND factual knowledge of this sort.
Re Atlantis - I have a feeling that they have found evidence of a sunken continent. I vaguely remember reading something someplace. It didn't interest me, because I don't need proof such as this.
Anyway, it is nothing to do with 'sb' and I am going off topic.
I don't think this discussion is off-topic at all. I think in fact it is very much a part of our struggle to discern fact from fantasy, in terms of how we judge situations, people, religions, and how we trust. This is an essential discussion.
In terms of lost Atlantis, specifically, there is evidence of a variety of continental shifts and seismic events that have been catastrophic for a number of civilizations. Atlantis is probably a mythical representation of these collective events. So believe if you will. I may be able to find you a link to someone who actually revived this age-old myth for common consumption back at the turn of the century, I believe.
Andries 391
06-17-2001 05:43 AM
Edited by author 06-17-2001 06:02 AM
Lieber Lucideye/Dear Lucideye and all,
Ref. message 379
>>After my SSB experience I distrust all religious authority.
>What kind of experience are you reffering to? Do you mean sexual?
I never had any sexual experience with SSB. But I felt very bad when I lost my faith. To quote Matthijs van der Meer in his article 'The Truth Will Prevail' "The sense of acute dilapidation which then took hold of me will remain with me for life." Well at least for the coming 5 years for me. I don't wish this to my worst enemies. I don't think I want ever to attach myself to a person that strongly again. Not to a guru, spouse or child whoever. I was very well aware of the dangers of strong attachment to a person but I thought it was okay with SSB because he was God.
SSB gave some people very wrong, dangerous advice during the interview that has endangered their lives and life turned into hell for some of them. They continue following this advice although it was in contrast with common sense or their own experience because of their faith. People come to PN with very serious problems sometimes. There is more that I like to write but I can't to protect the privacy of the people involved.
Of course this happens probably in every religion but everything is more intense when the guru is still alive.
I found SSB convincing and trusted him. Often without any doubt. I was emotionally deep into SSB. Imho it's natural for me to have distrust now against all religious leaders. Even if I wanted I could not change this distrust.
Btw I have read 2 channeled books of Stephan von Stepski-Doliwa in German, 'SB speaks...' but I liked and like SSB's discourses better.
Ref message 383
You wrote " That is another law of universe: The Law of Manifestation or 'what you think is what you get'. " What do you mean? If I think of a red Ferrari all the time will I get it eventually? Or do you mean that if I worship and think of e.g. Krishna then I will slowly get Krishna-like qualities? Why do you think the universe works that way? If this law were always true then nothing unexpected would happen in life and that's in contrast with my experience. I have heard quite often SSB devotees say (especially those who were influenced by the 'Course in Miracles') that if you think of sex or see sex everywehere then you will also see sex in something pure like SSB. So I've heard using this law as a defense against the allegations of SSB.
Personally I have more faith in the law of karma
Thanks in advance, Andries
Andries 390
06-17-2001 03:23 AM
Hi Anthony and all,
You wrote "That includes contemplating on 'sb' and asking oneself is that truly a man of God? We can apply our inner divine gift of knowing to anything. "
I tried many, many times with regards to SSB but no answer came for me. The strong emotions involved with this subject made it impossible to tune in with my intuition. I am afraid that this is the case for many other people too.
Kind regards, Andries
Anthony 389
06-17-2001 02:16 AM
Hi a watha
For me the end of the game is not 'sb' in the lock-up, but the freedom of the souls he has under his control.
And 'sb' is most definetly in the game and he knows it.
Questor.
I think it is good that you state your beliefs. Especially if you think the ideas are crazy and you want to show that someone here is sane. Quite understandable. But I don't think history books are the way to find out the truth, so much distortion to suit the times. I think we can know what happened 'back then' by being here now and going within for our answers. If we put aside all our fixed opinions on a subject and have no agenda for a particular outcome - and we truly desire the truth, no matter what that truth may be - then I think we are all capable of a great gift to know things. That includes contemplating on 'sb' and asking oneself is that truly a man of God? We can apply our inner divine gift of knowing to anything. It is not imagination, it is a sort of tuning in to the Universal consciousness, if that doesn't sound too wierd. It is just for our own personal use - and it is certainly very useful to help cruise this path called life. After a while the proof comes easily and you start to trust more and more your inner ability to know what is truth. You can still use all the other methods along with this. Obviously proof is needed to bring someone to court, etc. But it is still very helpful and I think we can all do it.
Re Atlantis - I have a feeling that they have found evidence of a sunken continent. I vaguely remember reading something someplace. It didn't interest me, because I don't need proof such as this. Anyway, it is nothing to do with 'sb' and I am going off topic.
Alexandra 388
06-17-2001 01:06 AM
Hi a watha,
So we're all playing a game. Do you consider yourself a participant too? I would think so. You're posting messages, and you are expressing your point of view. Aren't we all part of it? Even Sai Baba? How can we live and not be part of the game called Life played on the playground Earth?
Hi a watha 387
06-16-2001 08:38 PM
very clever cock and bull...
but, like Tony, you are going around in circles yelling in the playground about something none of your business. Like little children in the playground, some of you are smartasses, some are bullies, some play language games, some have this opinion, some have that opinion. Others put their fists up to scare the others or promise to punch someone. Verra soon, this will happen....verra soon, that will happen...oh, my, I'm gonna tell on you....you're not allowed to do that...Ooooh, mummy, he hit me... and so on. You know what the playground is like.
Very much it looks like the school playground and the pranks that go on in playtime, lunchtime, after school.
Problem is, the school playground is not the whole of life, it is an artificial environment that is only part of life.
Sampath, rkmsr, luvdeglobal, Terrie, Anthony, Bailey, Pittard, OCleary, Sainath, Parvathi, Shahgols, and others, all these people are playing a game and changing the rules as they go along when it looks like they are losing.
Problem is, the main player, Raju/Sathya Sai Baba is NOT in the game.
That is a BIG, BIG PROBLEM. Means you are playing with yourself. Do you like that? Does that make any sense?
It could be that your game is something you have all created for yourselves. And most of you are locked in. Cannot get away. Doomed to play the game to its destructive end? Hve you not played Doom?
The end game is raju in lock-up.
Thats what you want.
The Best of British Luck To You All.
Questor 386
06-16-2001 07:54 PM
I want to point out that there are people who don't believe in reincarnation who participate on this board. And there are people who don't believe in Atlantis as a lost continent either.
I understand from my studies in college that there was a great earthquake around 2000 BC which destroyed Mycenae and Knossos in Crete, and may have been responsible for a migration called the "sea peoples" who came from the middle east where there also was a seismic event. This event is also responsible for Santorini's sinking, a Greek island which is still volcanic, and which is now a rim of a crater, with the center, underwater. It was thought that this might have been referred to as the lost continent, just as many of Homer's lands were mythologized later by Herodotus and others.
It would be helpful to consult with some bona fide historians and scholars on many of the so-called historical events you try to verify as real which may not be real.
Anthony 385
06-16-2001 12:25 PM
I do agree with your comments, Lucideye (male :-)
I also see money as just an energy - one of the many forms of energy and abundance available on the planet. Like all energy, it can be used for good or can be misused. It is really a wonderful gift, but we so easily attach beliefs to it - 'we don't deserve it', we feel guilty about having it when others don't, it's wrong to charge for healing -- the list is endless.
I don't have a problem with 'sb' getting lots of money given to him. It could be used more wisely perhaps, but that is his karma - and also a lesson for those giving him the money.
I don't know if the Red Indians are from Atlantis, but I reckon lots of people are. I certainly believe it existed and then sank. They say the people that really love the ocean tend to have been incarnated in Atlantis. I don't know how reliable that is! Anyway, it doesn't matter who comes from where really, does it? All people have to come from somewhere, so that must mean other planets and galaxies. Where else can we come from?
It is easy to form beliefs about who is spiritual and who isn't in judgment of their life style. While it may seem that someone who escapes civilisation (and no website) is living a spiritual life, I think that we all have different roles to play. It could be that some people are meant to be in the limelight and famous in order to get their message known and be listened to. Streisand and Redford have both recently spoken out to express their view re Bush's ideas on global warming. Because of their fame, people will at least read what they say.
Terrie 384
06-16-2001 10:44 AM
Lucideye, your points are well taken. Thank you. I'm not replying in detail because I'm very tired, and am taking a break from this site (and others) for a short time.
Love,
Terrie
Lucideye 383
06-16-2001 06:20 AM
Dear Terrie,
you wrote:
>Those two sites, the one about the Rainbow lady and the Theeooba >site (or whatever...I can't remember the spelling) are BUSINESS >sites. They're selling stuff. If we really want to find out what >is going on, we'd better take the WITHIN path. Eventually we'll >know it all.
I do not think these are merely business sites. And what is wrong with money? We all need it, don't we? (except we live in a jungle or something...) And to have objections from money doesn't serve us very well. It does create our reality. What you think is what you get. When on one side you think that money is something reprehensible but on the other side wants to have it, you will never be succesful in having enough. That is another law of universe: The Law of Manifestation or 'what you think is what you get'. By the way, the thiaoouba site really is not a business site. Write an e-mail to the webmaster and ask to get this book for free. He will send it to you - no doubt! And after all, doesn't the Yogananda Org sell books as well? ;) >All this talk of "What do they wear? What about lovemaking?" It >all begs the question of what is really important. It's all >phenomena. Oh, I'm sure there are ETs. But unless they're >pulling the strings for ssb, how do they relate to this site?
Yes, of course, you are right with that, at least partially. I posted that link only for the reason that the book is IMHO one if not THE most important book in that current time. Of course, you won't believe before you have read it yourself. And believe me, I have read many. Including Yogananda, Neale D. Walsh, Edgar Cayce, etc., etc., but never found anything equal or even just nearly equal to "Thiaoouba Prophecy". That of course is merely my humble opinion. Like Anthony stated so nicely: "If we do look at such sites, what a wonderful opportunity for us to practise loving discernment without judgment." And that is the point that I have learned over and over for myself. Not only because of the SB issue... To be prejudiced or biassed serves us not well. The opposite is the case. It keeps us from many wonderful things. >Sorry, Lucideye. I like you and your posts. But there are so >many of those "revelation" sites on the net. I've found only two >"prophecy" sources I trust: Edgar Cayce and Mary Summer Rain. >(MSR says, by the way, that Jesus did have a consort, Mary...)
Maybe, I don't know myself. I just wanted to express here once more that I do NOT necessarily deem that "rainbow lady" (the name of the entity is Reflection) to be credible. In this case, I do not know but also do not want to form a judgment since I am in no position to do that. Questor wrote in her (?) last post that the Rainbow Lady is "suspicious" because Reflection claims that "the Native Americans are descended from the Atlanteans who are from another galaxy or something." I can only say here that the Native Americans have existed for many thousands of years on earth. How do we know that they did NOT come from another galaxy? And that I meant as I wrote that being prejudiced or biassed does not serve us very well or to say it with the words of Dr Tom J. Chalko: "(The most important book on earth in the last 1000 years (Thiaoouba Prophecy)). What we think we 'know' on earth is just a tiny drop in the Ocean of Knowledge."
>Cayce has been dead a long time, and there's an organization >that sells books on his teachings. MSR would never have her own >site and shuns the Internet...lives alone in the mountains. >Hampton Roads is her publisher.
But that does not inevitable make a person credible, that is, just because one lives in the mountains and/or does no advertising. By the way, Michel Desmarquet, the author of Thiaoouba Prophecy, lives now far away civilization as well - in the vietnamesian jungle. He has gone there after his experiences described in his book and has given most of his money to charity organizations.
>It is SO difficult today to tell truth from fiction. It's the >old intuition problem again that we all had with ssb.
How true.
Love,
Lucideye (I am male :))
Anthony 382
06-16-2001 04:16 AM
Lucideye felt there was a reason to post that link as a reference which he/she has explained well. 'Ideally', it shouldn't matter what links are posted, because if we are being intuitive we mostly won't bother to look at the site in the first place. If we do look at the such sites, what a wonderul opportunity for us to practise loving discernment without judgment. Meaning that while we may not agree with what we read or feel it is not true for us, we can manage to stay sufficiently above it. However, that is 'ideally.' As has been pointed out, we do have vulnerable people coming to this board and the last thing we want to do, while they are processing their anguish, is to lead them to another restricted path. Of course, they are responsible for themselves but that doesn't mean we aren't equally responsible - all for each other. So let us just keep in mind that not everyone that comes here is in a strong and discerning frame of mind. Not easy for them to contemplate the thought that the person you thought was God, is really a trickster and a pervert.
I agree the point you make, Lucideye. Although 'sb' says - I am God, you are God - it is clear by most of his words and actions that this is not what he believes or teaches or wants others to beleive. If this were his true teaching, every person would leave the ashram or finish reading his books with the firm idea that they were god and didn't need to follow someone who says he is god. They would also have been told by him that every person has special gifts, that it is no big deal to manifest things and they shouldn't be impressed by such displays, that no-one needs to come to see him for the truth of divinity is within themselves , etc. etc.
Cock & Bull
I think there have been probably been a few others. I guess Hitler did a pretty good abuse job openly and publically. It may take some intelligence to get him to court, but I think the greatest power on Earth exists with the people. Governments, supermarkets, etc. bow to people pressure (when people get their act together enough to protest!) Ultimately what the people will allow is what happens. If we reach the people, he will come down. Newspaper coverage is good in this respect.
Re the channeling area. I haven't looked at this rainbow site mentioned because it didn't excite me to do so. However generally speaing, I believe some channeling is excellent and comes from higher sources - and a lot of channeling is incorrect and comes from astral or similar levels of existence. It really shouldn't matter what is written. If we are discerning in what we accept, there is no problem whatsoever. If we read something we feel isn't true, we then just let it pass on by and quietly move on to the next thing.
If we don't feel that we can do that, then perhaps in our busy lives, we can spend a little time on learning to trust ourselves again. Perhaps spend a short time each day in a quiet place in the garden or similar and tune into nature and our inner silence.
I also believe there is life elsewhere and that there are UFO's, E.T's and whatever - and while this is a fascinating subject for those just learning about it, I guess it is not a part of the 'sb' discussion other than regarding his ignorant statement re 'no ufo's'. I believe 'sb' is in control of himself and his actions. He is not someone being gotten at by ET's or the astral plane.
Andries
Nothing is stronger than light/source. If we have an intent to help people, to do what is right in our heart, etc. then we have the power of that light. I think its time to let go of the impression you received as a child. Have no fear of evil beings being sent by 'sb'. In fact, when people make a connection to 'sb,' it is possible that astral beings are around them from that time. But they aren't evil. They just try to cash in on the heavy energy connection. They have fun by trying to lead people astray and encourage the individual to have sex so they can have the experience also. Once the connection to 'sb' is broken and the devotee (ex) gets past the trauma of that and start to reconnect to higher energy, the astral beings leave anyway. Mind you they can create lots of fear and doubt as long as the person has their own fear and doubt. It can become very exaggerated. It is all up to what we allow to happen. Postive thought and strength of mind help heaps. We are all a million times stronger than these astral entities, who rely on fear to create disturbance.
My last comment is to confused devotees who may be reading this board - please do not even contemplate joining another group of any kind until you have reached a place of certainty within yourself. You need to be really clear about your own path first, so you can easily tell what group has truth of a high level and what hasn't. Many have 'some' truth and this can easily fool us.
Terrie 381
06-16-2001 01:25 AM
Those two sites, the one about the Rainbow lady and the Theeooba site (or whatever...I can't remember the spelling) are BUSINESS sites. They're selling stuff. If we really want to find out what is going on, we'd better take the WITHIN path. Eventually we'll know it all.
All this talk of "What do they wear? What about lovemaking?" It all begs the question of what is really important. It's all phenomena. Oh, I'm sure there are ETs. But unless they're pulling the strings for ssb, how do they relate to this site?
Sorry, Lucideye. I like you and your posts. But there are so many of those "revelation" sites on the net. I've found only two "prophecy" sources I trust: Edgar Cayce and Mary Summer Rain. (MSR says, by the way, that Jesus did have a consort, Mary...)
Cayce has been dead a long time, and there's an organization that sells books on his teachings. MSR would never have her own site and shuns the Internet...lives alone in the mountains. Hampton Roads is her publisher.
It is SO difficult today to tell truth from fiction. It's the old intuition problem again that we all had with ssb.
Questor 380
06-15-2001 08:11 PM
That rainbow lady is suspicious. Moved out to the country and drove the beavers off the land. Claims to have answers. Says that the Native Americans are descended from the Atlanteans who are from another galaxy or something. What cock and bull (present company excluded).
Andries, take care and though there are people who will sell you a bill of goods, don't buy it. And Lucideye, what are you posting this nonsense for? You're too smart for this. Yikes! Many people reading this board are vulnerable and should take care not to be sucked into possibly another wacky cult.
Best to all, Questor
Lucideye 379
06-15-2001 05:00 PM
Dear Andries,
you wrote:
>Why go anywhere else than the discussion clubs about SSB to find >the truth about SSB? There are people here who have inside >experience with SSB and the SSB org. Why should I trust the >channeling or inner voice of 'Rainbow Lady'? It may come from a >source that is not omniscient or not pure or even if the source >is omniscient and pure then 'Rainbow Lady' may subconsciously >distort the message. There are so many channellers often with >very different messages. The Qoran was also channelled by the >prophet Muhammed (peace be upon him). Whom to trust? Whom to >dismiss?
I entirely agree with you that it is very difficult to find the truth among all those channneled and allegedly true messages, relevations, etc., but that we must learn - to distinguish the truth from the untruth. I posted this link only because a friend of mine has asked this question there and wanted to provide you with the answer. After all, Baba has also been appearing in many so called 'channeled' books and the concept of 'channeling' shouldn't be new to devotees and ex-devotees. Not only because of the books like "Master Hilarion" of Hulda Clark (a high profile ex-devotee of Baba, now dead), the "Baba talks..." books written/channeled by my fellow countryman Stephan v. Stepski-Doliwa (a German) or the "Habe keine Angst mein Kind, ich besch?tze Dich" (Have no fear, my child/dear, I will guard you) book by Ute Prema Kanthak (also a German) in which e.g. Baba clearly confirms the existence of Ufos in opposition to his previous talks like perhaps in the "Conversations with Sathya Sai Baba" book by J. Hislop (Sai: "In all the universe there is no other planet that has human life, or a similar life-form."), etc. And, I do have also an inclination towards channeling or communication with my guides and helpers and/or other beings of light.
>After my SSB experience I distrust all religious authority.
What kind of experience are you reffering to? Do you mean sexual? >I find it very difficult to refute the message of SSB. The >reason is I think that it comes from an unbroken 5000 years old >varied tradition of religious freedom to which many wise and >intelligent (wo-)men have contributed. It would be very arrogant >to think that I could have an opinion about this tradition. The >only thing I can say is that some elements help me and appeal to >me and some elements don't.
I can only speak for myself, but the most important book in this current time is IMHO "Thiaoouba Prophecy" by Michel Desmarquet. I has helped me very much and it is SO incredible. If you are able to be comfortable with the fact that there are ETs and want to read it and/or purchase it go http://www.thiaoouba.com and read it there. If you do not want to buy it, you can also copy it page by page from their website (very arduous; however, the e-book is free), but I would urge everybody who has opened for possibilities of extraterrestrial life to read this book. You won't regret to have done so. It is SO amazing that even scientists are enthusiastic because of it. Please do not make the mistake to think that it is just another book on UFOs/aliens - this is NOT the case.
>I believe that SSB is correct when he says that all persons are >God but some are more God than others. To formulate this more >precisely in a holy person God's energy comes out undistorted >way and in a sinner it comes out in a distorted way. So SSB is >imho correct when he says that he is God.
Yes, but as I have already stated once in a previous mail that the concept of Advaita has to be understood very well and Baba does NOT meant in a sense of 'you are God and so am I'. He clearly claims that he is the God of Gods the father of Jesus, the embodiment of Shiva/shakti, the greatest avatar of all times, etc., etc. and that is sick IMHO.
>Btw I had a discussion about the monistic (all is God) versus >dualistic (God differs from this world and other beings)
>principle with the ISKCON people (Hare Krishna) who are schooled >to refute the monistic principle. The question has no practical >implications for me and it doesn't solve any emotional problems >so I decided to evade the discussion although I still believe in >the monistic principle.
Both truths are right. It depends on your point of view or your focus. But the Advaita approach can be more 'dangerous' when it is not sufficiently understood.
Love,
Lucideye
Cock & Bull 378
06-15-2001 04:19 PM
To catch a criminal like Raju,one must deploy intelligence of a very great order.In fact a religious leader from India should take this Man head on or bring Raju to International Court Of justice in Hague.Never in the history of mankind has anyone got away with sheer murder,spiritual abuse,so openly.
Cock & Bull 377
06-15-2001 04:12 PM
Dear andries,
Pardon me,if i have hurt your feelings.My intention is to make people see and know Raju is a fake,trickster,con artist,sexually perverted person,who is getting away with sheer murder.The beauty of it is,in a country which has produced saints and savants,leaders of exemplary nature,this swine Raju is spoiling it.In fact i am kicking myself for not having seen thru this atrocious deception.Like i said Black Magic is an art and Raju went to Kerala to learn the skills from masters as his uncle's training given to him was not enough.
Anthony 376
06-15-2001 03:26 PM
I agree that it serves no good to call devotees stupid. For a start it isn't true. And remember that before people became ex-devotees, they were devotees!!
By the way, I don't want people to get worried that they can't mention anything that is 'off topic'. Freedom is a great gift. However, let us keep the general theme always in mind. Devotees coming to this board come to find out if there is any truth in the accusations against 'sb.' So they don't want to plough through lots of other stuff.
I think we have a productive and helpful board. All that is posed and presented here can help people who have doubts. Thank you everyone for your contributions.
Andries 375
06-15-2001 02:25 PM
Dear Cock & Bull,
>Mostly Raju uses these subjective spirits to quell dissent. What do you mean? How? Was e.g. Tal Brooke bothered by evil spirits? Does anyone know?
I was reminded of a radio interview with an old lady who wanted to report sexual molestation of boys to the police in the former Dutch Indies. She was threatened by the molestor and she was attacked by evil spirits that the molestor had sent to her. For some reason or another this radio interview made a very authentic impression on me. When I was in Indonesia (Bandung) all Indonesians seemed to believe in black magic and many had stories about it. I had nearly forgotten about this. There is a Javanese tradition of black magic.
>Shirdi Sai Baba's spirit will not rest until this child molester Raju is brought to books and sent to prison. Why did Shirdi Sai wait so long? Imho it must be the will of the Omnipotent that this drama took place.
>The brainless twits,Raju devotees are lapping all that explanation. Please don't write such stuff again. I feel vicariously insulted because I have many devotee-friends. It is natural that a person has distorted opinions when they feel affection. This doesn't mean at all that somebody can't be impartial or can't have balanced opinions about other subjects or can't be competent in his/her profession. Everybody's opinion is distorted sometimes by affection. "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." I think that your scorning of SSB devotees won't help anybody. Thanks in advance.
Btw you may be pleased to hear that I have a Shirdi Sai screensaver on my computer.
Kind regards, Andries
Cock & Bull 374
06-15-2001 12:49 PM
In the Interview room:
Just then a curtain that covered the opened glass door to the balcony moved in the breeze. Seeing this, two ladies in the crowd began to weep. "Baba! Baba is here with us right now!", they sobbed.
Now ,one could really see how it worked. One didn't have to do anything. Such foolish people would create their own "miracle", propagate it, and make you God. As this is what is happening with Raju.
Cock & Bull 373
06-15-2001 12:35 PM
The first welcome You get upon your arrival at Raju's ashram is from a large group of ragged beggars sitting outside the front gate. Past them, flocks of well-off people crowded into the compound; that meant Raju was there now. One viewed these scene's with decidedly mixed feelings.
"He is supposed to be God", you considered, "and his followers say he has the power to remove misfortune, disease and poverty - so why are these beggars loitering here just outside his own house? And if his disciples are really so blessed, why don't they do something more for these poor people than just give them a few coins?" or Raju himself come out and admit those poor children to schools and colleges.Or admit those beggars to Speciality Hospitals for treatments.Raju is for rich and powerfull or people with influence to further his interests whatever they are.
Andries 372
06-15-2001 12:13 PM
Dear Lucideye/Liebe(r) Lucideye and all, (Ref message 369)
Why go anywhere else than the discussion clubs about SSB to find the truth about SSB? There are people here who have inside experience with SSB and the SSB org. Why should I trust the channeling or inner voice of 'Rainbow Lady'? It may come from a source that is not omniscient or not pure or even if the source is omniscient and pure then 'Rainbow Lady' may subconsciously distort the message. There are so many channellers often with very different messages. The Qoran was also channelled by the prophet Muhammed (peace be upon him). Whom to trust? Whom to dismiss? After my SSB experience I distrust all religious authority.
I find it very difficult to refute the message of SSB. The reason is I think that it comes from an unbroken 5000 years old varied tradition of religious freedom to which many wise and intelligent (wo-)men have contributed. It would be very arrogant to think that I could have an opinion about this tradition. The only thing I can say is that some elements help me and appeal to me and some elements don't.
I believe that SSB is correct when he says that all persons are God but some are more God than others. To formulate this more precisely in a holy person God's energy comes out undistorted way and in a sinner it comes out in a distorted way. So SSB is imho correct when he says that he is God.
Btw I had a discussion about the monistic (all is God) versus dualistic (God differs from this world and other beings) principle with the ISKCON people (Hare Krishna) who are schooled to refute the monistic principle. The question has no practical implications for me and it doesn't solve any emotional problems so I decided to evade the discussion although I still believe in the monistic principle.
Kind regards/Mit freundlichen Grussen, Andries
Hari Sampath 371
06-15-2001 11:56 AM
To Dr Sabapathy Siva :
When you have not even addressed logically even one of the many perfectly valid questions I have raised, and instead say that Iam in "inner turmoil", I guess that shows very clearly who is confused here.
Thanks,
Hari Sampath.
Cock & Bull 370
06-15-2001 10:15 AM
Edited by author 06-15-2001 10:16 AM
One of the truths is,Raju was abused sexually as a child,by his uncle.In fact his uncle is more sinister than Raju himself.More something like the witch doctor.(Looks like our witch doctor made a hasty retreat,LOL LOL).Raju in discourses says about his poverty during his childhood and how he was ill treated while studying,made to carry water and all that.Those classmates Ramesh & Suresh,met a tragic end.One died and the other went insane,thanks to Raju's touch.Even at that young age,Raju was growing to become a serial killer.Raju is nothing but a Dr.Jekyl and Hyde syndrome character.After fondling the men in their privates,Raju is endorsing it as "Kundalini Awakening".What hogwash?The brainless twits,Raju devotees are lapping all that explanation.What is required in India is a strong leader who cares for the welfare of his people.Put an end to all these meaningless bastards out of this unholy busineess of religion.
Lucideye 369
06-15-2001 10:10 AM
Dear all,
Here is a website for you to look at.
http://www.rainbow-lady.com/qa-main.htm For one or the other it is perhaps of some relevance. (I do NOT claim that it is for me)
Please take a look at questions no 7 & 10 !
Love,
Lucideye
_______________________________________ PS: The main page is: http://www.rainbow-lady.com
A Sparrow 368
06-15-2001 10:04 AM
Alexandra ... Yes, indeed; people have a double standard here. And it's true that what's appropriate for one person may not be appropriate for another. An adult may drink wine where a child may not. An eighteen year old can stay out until midnight but not a eight year old. What it boils down to is this: is raju doing what he does (let's just stick with the sexual allegations for now) for unselfish, altruistic reasons? Does what he does genuinely help the other person? Although some of his "victims" may welcome this kind of attention, I believe that many people have been damaged, directly and indirectly, by what he does. There have even been some suicides. Also, pedophelia begets pedophilia. Most peds were themselves sexually abused as children, so it's likely that his "victims" are carrying on the "tradition" that he instilled in them with other youngsters. Are all of them holy, therefor exempt from the same rules that apply to the rest of us?
There are some people in the world who believe themselves to be above the law. Raju fits into that category.
The situation is like the Hans Christian Anderson tory of "The Emperors New Clothes", only a bit more sinister. Folks are painting the actions of the one whom they believe to be God with a holy brush while they would paint those same actions with a criminal brush if anyone else were to perform them.
Angela, the most important thing to keep in mind is that paramormal abilities do not a saint make. If Saddam Hessien had siddhis he wouldn't be any better a guy than he is w/o them. Let's put "miricles" in their place and not let them be an excuse for bad behaviour.
Cock & Bull 367
06-15-2001 10:00 AM
Please people try to understand,I am honor bound for my sources.But,i am sure a time will come that each statement and postings can be verified.I am posting the truth about Raju.I am not looking for any certificates from anybody,as truth will triumph.Raju will be put behind bars,for the most un-expected of crimes that he has committed and countless other frauds & scams that he has been an accessory.
I read couple of posts,back saying just because one is sent prison,that does not mean he has committed the crimes.What on earth is that supposed mean?Raju is a rascal,scoundrel & a rogue,who is actively conning innocent minds,a spiritual entertainer conducting sleight of hand tricks.Even the Vibhuthi has mind altering substances from PN.Shirdi Sai Baba's spirit is superior to the Black Magic of Raju.Raju will have to go to prison and repent for his crimes.Unfortunately Indian justice is not effective like USA,where Timothy McVeigh was made a classic example to people at large,you do something like what timothy did you will end up like him.
Sabapathy Siva 366
06-15-2001 08:45 AM
Greetings to all;
Thank you for all your replies. Good luck with your work by the esteemed, estranged and last but not the least, enlightened members.. I've signed off from your page. Love you all.
Sam.
Alexandra 365
06-15-2001 07:11 AM
Follow up of message # 362. HereÆs what IÆve been thinking on.
Cock & Bull, you have been saying things about Sai Baba that most of us cannot verify. It does come across as hearsay and wishful talk. No wonder A Sparrow and Sam would like references. I do too.
Suppose Sai Baba ends up in jail. Will that be proof he committed the crimes heÆs accused of? Not necessarily. People get sentenced to death and after years it turns out they were innocent. Being convicted is not 100% proof. In Sai Baba's case, it helps of course to clarify the allegations, while there must be at least some evidence otherwise Sai Baba wonÆt get summoned to court at all.
Now suppose Sai Baba does not get convicted. Is that proof that he is innocent? That he didnÆt bribe, was sexually not active with minors, etcetera? No. It does not proof that the stories of Hans de Kraker, Conny Larsson, etcetera are made up.
That Sai Baba has tricked materializations, does that proof he tricked all? No.
Suppose he did perform miracles, does that make all his actions miraculous? No.
Why believe Sai Baba is a He and Him with capital HÆs? Because of his miracles? What he teaches?
Why believe Sai Baba to be a fraud, child molester or worse? Because thereÆs evidence he acted out in ways that we generally consider to be fraudulent and unacceptable. Sai BabaÆs explanation that he is above all human qualities is in no way enough to make them acceptable. Why would we be satisfied with such an answer? Because of the miracles? Because of a belief that he is a He? Because it is possible to experience such actions as private lessons in spiritual growth?
Regarding this last question: ShouldnÆt we then also try to look at and experience a Timothy McVeigh as someone having offered growing experiences to mankind? Where is the limit? Where do we draw lines? Why accept Sai BabaÆ s actions and condemn them in others?
It is not that my faith in Sai Baba hasnÆt been strong enough, there is something in the dualness. In general, devotees seem to judge the same type of things with two different measuring sticks: Sai Baba is measured with a holy stick, all other people are measured with the stick for common people. Roughly speaking skeptics and ex-devotees are measuring with the regular stick for common people only. What happens is that itÆs like trying to fit Sai Baba in a mold: either the Holy mold (devotees prefer him there), or the fraudulent mold (where roughly speaking skeptics and ex-devotees place him). Now what if Sai Baba fits both molds? Suppose he is a holy man AND a criminal. How are we going to handle that?
Terrie, yes indeed! The world would be very boring! When I reread Sam's mails, and it's like with some of the mails of ex-devotee's, I could see that I could read them differently.
Anthony 364
06-15-2001 03:42 AM
>From past experience, it seems to be hard for active 'sb' devotees to be loving in their communications (even though he teaches this) when posting on boards, but lets face it, the the same often applies to ex-devotees who often get angry when others won't look at the possibility of 'sb' being something other than he claims.
The doctor is obviously very much a devoted 'sb' fan. He is not posting here to learn or examine 'sb' as he probably believes 'sb' is perfect. He is simpy trying to protect his master from what he sees as slander. He may also hope to persuade us of our errant ways!!! He is doing what feels right for him. We have no problem with this.
He makes a good point regarding what is said here.
For the sake of truth and success in bringing 'sb' to justice, I think we need to look at passing on things we really don't know are true or not. I know it is tempting sometimes, but it is not necessary. We have plenty enough between all of us that we know is true. Most of the posts here consist of that truth.
If there is anything that we really don't know in some way for ourselves, haven't experienced it, don't have a reliable source for that information - then perhaps we can leave it out. If we move away from truth, our integrity is compromised and we go down the same road as 'fuzzy wuzzy' (couldn't resist it!) We can do this, not through fear of a slander suit (wouldn't it be wonderful to get him in court) but because of the rightness of it. Just a suggestion.
Terrie 363
06-15-2001 01:01 AM
Alexandra, it's good we all have different views, isn't it!!?? What a boring world it would be if we all saw the same person in the same way.
Alexandra 362
06-15-2001 12:37 AM
Edited by author 06-15-2001 12:44 AM
Hari,
you're very right regarding all your questions on Hislop, Krystal, Sandweiss. I was only talking in my mail on the one book by Beyerstein, and the one by Haraldsson. Because, yes, certainly, all the miracles in the ones of Sandweis etc. were not scientifically researched miracles. Still, I think they way Haroldsson dealt with the matter is more solid than Beyerstein, even the given fact that he wasn't able to wire Baba up or anything. And both of them went more critically about the miracles than Hislop, Krystal, Sandweiss. It was not the intention of the last three to investigate Sai Baba from a scientifically point of view.
Terrie,
I don't read Sam's writing as sarcasm, scorn and bitterness only. I read it as if he's trying to communicate, what I appreciate.
Sam,
when I want to learn the French language, it would be very good to go a French speaking country and live there for a while. But before doing so, or in case I'm not able to go, I still can learn a lot of French in my home country. I also can read material on Paris and make a list of things I would like to visit when being in Paris, and I can even draw myself a map. In other words, going to Puttaparthi is not a garantee for good research on Sai Baba; there are things that can be done from the couch at home.
Other than that I'll have to think on the other questions raised by Hari and Sam. See ya later.
Cock & Bull 361
06-15-2001 12:29 AM
The parents of the boys who were murdered in June 1993 at Pn,were threatened to keep their mouth shut.Ramaswami Wodeyar a known Don of the underworld,who was patronised by the Late M.G.Ramachandran popularly known as MGR,is also moving away from Raju clicks.Chandra Babu Naidu is also distancing himself from Raju.The present CM Krishna of Karnataka is in dire danger of losing his power soon.A.B.Vajpayee is keeping quiet of the exposes,but the Home Minister is being fed the truth about Raju.Shirdi Sai Baba's spirit will not rest until this child molester Raju is brought to books and sent to prison.
Cock & Bull 360
06-14-2001 11:50 PM
This Mad Doc ought to be kicked out of ennui.Idiot,who has given this man the degree.Pity the patients.Lucky he has daughters otherwise Raju might have tried his shennanigan with his offsprings too.Magazines like India Today,Illustrated Weekly,Sunday,Outlook,Tehelka.com, and newspapers like Deccan Chronicle,The Hindu,Times Of India,The statesman,The Telegraph,Indian Express etc have all published about this fraud Raju.Now the good doc has no common sense in questioning the moderator of the club.Raju holds his people in spells,; looks like his poor wife must be going thru hell.Its like when the south pole and north pole of two magnets are brought into close quarters,the attraction that takes place due to the magnectic field,is somewhat how Raju holds people in captive.The Black Magic of Raju are in the wane that is one of the main reasons exposes are beginning to surface.A.B.Vajpayee's Doctors refused the speciality hospital of Raju to Breach Candy in Bombay.Raju's days are numbered.Shirdi Sai Baba's spirit will nail this son of a son and put him behind bars.
Tony O'Clery 359
06-14-2001 10:57 PM
Sam, your wife is right get out away from this fraud sb.
Terrie 358
06-14-2001 08:44 PM
REPLY TO SAMPATH/ALEXANDRA;
HARALDDSON vs BYERSTEIN;
Your discussions again prove your inner turmoil. Who is a better person to talk or write and more importantly to criticise/judge about the Pope/Tiger Wood/Tom Cruse etc. than the one who had seen/talked/moved with those individuals.? SB need not to have to be wired to some machines to prove himself. Pl.read the preface to Haralddson's book. SB couldn't be bothered if some one do not or did not believe in his miracles. Existence of opposites is the basic law of creation. Also read Arnold Schulman's book B..A..B..A. Why did he go to P.Parthi and stayed there for three weeks.? Can you write a tour guide or a book about Paris with out having been there.? Perhaps you would and there will be always few Byes and Lanes to read your work and applaud your incognito intellectual accumen. Love you all as always.
Dr. Sabapathy Siva 356
06-14-2001 08:00 PM
Greetings Moderator(s): TO MODERATE OR MITIGATE..???
I was lead to believe that your web was a moderated 'civil board'. As such I am amazed to see how some of your contributors write as their whim and fancy dictates them with out any reference or indication of their source. Perhaps moderation exists only in spelling and grammar..??? In the past 48 hrs. the following messages were posted reg.SB, all serious accusations without any reference to them.
1.SB was sexually abused when he was young.
2.SB is a dibetic.
3.SB bribes politicians and others to keep himself out of trouble. 4.SB at the age of 40 became educated obtainig bookish knowledge, 5.SB practises his speech, miracle 2 hrs. prior to every dharsan. 6.SB will be arrested soon. (Ironically the author of this messge writes that he will not reveal his source, as they are all afraid as to what is going to happen to them.) Rightly so..why fear in telling the truth.? 7.SB hospitals and water works have been in trouble. 8.SB is a hermopheredite b/c his hermopheredite devotees told me so or Tal Brook wrote so in his book. Is T.B.a visionary or a reference point.? A witness or reference ought to be a credible one.
The list goes on and on. Where is the evidance for these trash.? This is irresponsible childish writing. In a pot of boiling water one grain is the proof for rest of the pot having been cooked or not. Sure you have every right to bring your concerns to the public. But it ought to be done in an acceptable way.
Wish you all well.
Hari Sampath 355
06-14-2001 06:51 PM
Alex,
Hislop, Sandweiss, Krystal et al, these folks too wrote books based on so many others' accounts of "miracles". Tell me, how many of these authors "investigated" these miracles ? They just wrote what was told to them.
Were they all "eye witnesses" ?
And considering this, in what way can Dr Siva call Bayerstein a "couch potato" and all the others including Haraldsson as "serious researchers" ?
And even when writing about those incidents to which they were "eye witnesses" , see the extraordinary amounts of contradictions.
Radhakrishnan was dead.... no he was not.
His body had decomposed for 6 days..... no he was dead only for an hour.
He was having no pulse, and no breath for 20 hours...... he was muttering deliriously a few hours before SB "resurrected him".
Walter Cowan died, his years and nose were stuffed with cotton, and he was in a mortuary.........., no, Walter Cowan never died at all, and the hospital never even called him dead.
Judge Damodar Rao "certified" Walter Cowan as dead....... Damodar Rao never did so..
Sai Baba told Hislop three times that Walter had indeed died , and that he "resurrected him" ....... Hislop as well as Haraldsson both agree that Sai Baba lied about this.
Is this "scientific and objective" ?? Are people like Hislop , Sandweiss and Krystal, who report all fantastic stuff, so completely contradictory, to be taken as writers of the "gospel " ??
Are these peoples' accounts any more reliable than that of someone like Bayerstein who , sitting miles away, simply quotes Hislop, Sandweiss, Haraldsson and others, and simply points out the glaring deficiencies in these "objective reports".
And, in any case, if Haraldsson , and Hislop are to be taken as "objective" , according to Sai Baba folowers, then it objectively follows that Sai Baba was lying about all these things, as that is what these people have said.
Hari Sampath
Alexandra 354
06-14-2001 05:31 PM
Edited by author 06-14-2001 05:36 PM
Tony, I had a good laugh when reading your "Hey Cock and Bull, I haven't seen so much cock and bull for a while. Looks like youre reading those Holy Grail fictions by Baigent and company," cause the same thing had been crossing my mind. I was looking for a clou: maybe all those paragraphs would lead to something of the anti-christ, the topic of this board which has become off track.
Hari, I agree with Sam (dr Sabapathy Siva) that Haraldsson's study is better (his study, even though based on conversations etcetera, are very thorough) than Beyerstein's. But I have to agree with your point that Haraldsson has not been able to do the research science requires for paranormal phenomena. So I'm curious to Sam's reply to your last message.
Also, even couch potato research can be good research: if the objective is to just analyse written material available, then that is what Beyerstein mainly did. For what he must have intended, it wasn't necessary to go and visit Sai Baba in India. The fact that Haraldsson did travel to India and had interviews doesn't automatically make him, Haraldsson a better researcher than Beyerstein.
For me it's very difficult to draw definite conclusions from Haraldsson's book; it's much easier to do it on Beyerstein's. Based on Beyerstein only I would say the miracle stories don't hold. Based on Haraldsson only Sai Baba remains an enigma.
Cock & Bull 353
06-14-2001 05:27 PM
Anthony,
Please edit my post regarding Jesus Christ,as i realise its toooooo lenghty.I apologise to fellow members.
Terrie 352
06-14-2001 05:24 PM
Cock & Bull:
I think if you see evidence that Jesus was married, then you should just post the book(s) that discuss this rather than long detailed posts that interrupt the current discussions. True, there has NEVER been any evidence that Jesus was other than heterosexual.
Jesus could well have had a consort (as it would have been called then). Such a situation would have been understood, accepted and considered totally normal...not worth mentioning. End of argument. Accepted. Let's move on.
(However, individual readers on this board might want to have your missives via e-mail. Just let C&B know.) Love,
Terrie
Cock & Bull 351
06-14-2001 05:18 PM
By sheer money power and deception Raju has been surving all thes days.Raju should realise there are extrordinary religious organisatios in India and abroad,who can also buy political clout and put him in a spot.Always Black magic spells dont work.Just because Raju learnt Tantrik tricks from people in Kerala,that does not mean all the spirits are in his control.Mostly Raju uses these subjective spirits to quell dissent.But these spirits can boomerang too.
Cock & Bull 350
06-14-2001 05:00 PM
Dear Anthony,
You are welcome to do whatever you want to do with my post regarding Jesus Christ.As to the relevance i was only trying to amke a point to Dr.Sabapathy Siva that Jesus Christ had indeed married and had children,That Jesus cannot be compared to a donkey like Raju who at the most is able social worker.At least in the garb of social work and religious works he has been conning multitudes of people and now has stooped to sexual perversion.Raju is gay now.He once had normal sexual relationship with women,now why he prefer's men is anybodys guess.But definitely by Shirdi Sai Baba's grace Raju will be arrested and put behind bars,for he has disgraced Shirdi Sai Baba's name & Fame.
If what Raju says about his re-incarnation is true,How is that till date the Shirdi Sanathan has yet to recongnise nor is Raju able to transform Shirdi Sai Baba devotees enmasse to his fold.Raju is a fraud,trickster,con artist,male gigolo etc.
Hari Sampath 349
06-14-2001 03:25 PM
To Dr Sabapathy Siva :
You mention that Haraldsson conducted his investigations in a "scientific way".
I hope to bring to your attention that Haraldsson was the first person to acknowledge that he could NOT do any scientific investigation at all, as Sai Baba refused to subject himself to a scientific test.
Having accepted this as a fact, all that Haraldsson ever did was to ask around , enquire from people "witneses" to miracles etc, and document his findings based on these "testimonies".
Additionally, we have the situation when Haraldsson talks about what he himself had seen visually, "materializations" and other things.
Considering the fact that Haraldsson was only relying on his "eyesight", how can these conclusions been taken as "scientific conclusions" ? These observations are no better or no worse than you and me and any other "non scientific" person giving our personal opinions on "miracles".
For example, if a Cardiologist, without any medical equipment, and with a weak eyesight, were to comment from a distance of 20 feet , that a patient has a heart problem, would you classify it as a "scientific judgement" ? NO. You could say it was the judgement of a cardiologist, in his capacity as just a layperson, and obviously without any scientific means to do so.
In light of this position, ALL of Haraldsson's observations are to be classified only as an observer's opinions, just as the Kasthuris, Hislops , Sandweisses etc...
In view of this ,Sai Baba and his followers' claims that "scientists had investgated SB and concluded that miracles are genuine" is completely inaccurate, and with no basis at all.
Can you please elaborate upon this issue ?
Thanks,
Hari Sampath.
BTW : SB's request to put dead in quotes, was with respect to Walter Cowan, and was made to Hislop, and not with respect to Radhakrishnan and Kasthuri.
In any case, you do find that Haraldsson's findings based on the various accounts was that SB had deliberately lied, and agreed upon by Hislop . Any answers ?
MarsWalker108 348
06-14-2001 02:20 PM
Dear Steelmouse28,
Barry Pittard seldom and maybe never vists the Yahoo clubs and groups. He is very busy with other matters. He knows that I sometimes post and we are friends.
Love, Dennis
Anthony 347
06-14-2001 02:06 PM
Cock & Bull
I don't really see the relevance of the very long posting regarding Jesus. The board is about 'sb'.
Can anyone give me a reason that would show this posting to be beneficial? Perhaps something I am too dumb to see. Otherwise it will not be retained.
Andries
By the way, I totally disagree with the 'sb' statement re not doing what you want but love what you are doing. I believe that providing the 'want' comes from our heart and is not a dictate of our mind or ego, we will love what we do. Absolutely fatal to force yourself to do something that doesn't feel right from in your heart and then to try and love doing it! Won't work and isn't meant to. I also don't believe suffering is necessary to receive grace. Pure intent of service is sufficient.
Tony O'Clery 346
06-14-2001 01:16 PM
Hey Cock and Bull, I haven't seen so much cock and bull for a while. Looks like youre reading those Holy Grail fictions by Baigent and company.
Firstly Jesus was probably raised by Essenes, a good bet as his cousin was John the Baptist. They divided into marrying and celibate. Jesus went to India at about 13 years, he travelled there, stayed in a monastery in Tibet,( the records are in Himis, Leh) and travelled back through Asia and Greece to Egypt, where he took his final vows at Heliopolis, so did John. They then went througha an intiation of 3 days in the tomb. This was in the King's Chamber in the great pyramid.
Most of this actually gels with the Cayce readings as well.
He didn't have anytime to marry, and in fact he did leave the body on the cross. What else is death but that?
The Templars were something else altogether. They essentially were an early form of a transnational corp and controlled the finances of Christendom. Not a lot is known about them, some say they were Joannite, some say they were descended from earlier religious groups. Their main occupation was money though. ....regards Tony.
Andries 345
06-14-2001 12:39 PM
Upcoming Arrestation of SSB? (Ref. message 343 by Cock and Bull)
I have very mixed feelings about an arrestation of SSB. It will be such a shock for the devotees. I have many devotee-friends them and I feel sorry for them. It will get busy on this website. Of course many devotees will say that Jesus was arrested and convicted too. The case of Premananda (and Jesus) show that a religious movement may not end with a conviction.
Kind regards, Andries.
344
06-14-2001 12:24 PM
Deleted by topic administrator 06-15-2001 02:39 AM Cock & Bull 343
06-14-2001 10:59 AM
A Sparrow :>>C&B ... please, please answer when I ask you HOW you know stuff (raju's diabetes, that he was molested, etc).<<
I have my own resources from which i am posting in these boards.In fact very soon Raju will be arrested,just like Chandraswami,Premananda etc.Until such time let the beliver's keep believing why to make them unhappy now itself..I wish i can disclose my sources but i am honor bound as my sources are scared for their very life.You got no idea the kind of people Raju has under his belt....
Cock & Bull 342
06-14-2001 10:50 AM
My sincere advice to people is follow what Raju say's(not all of it) but don't follow him.Because you will end up arousing "MOOLADARA CHAKRAS" of fellow human beings when they don't want you to do that.
P.S.Raju practices quite a lot before he comes out to darshan.Now we know why so little time he has to spend with the devotees.couple of hours in the morning & couple of hours in the evening.The rest of the time indulging in practicing the sleight of hand tricks,re-gurgitation of Lingams,Vibhuthi pellets hidden in between fingers to make it appear as if materialising from thin air,sandal wood oiling for kundi lining etc.
A Sparrow 341
06-14-2001 09:46 AM
Forget that last one. Don't know how it got submitted.
Andries ... No contradiction. Enjoying life doesn't mean being a hedonist; sitting by the pool sipping mint juleps or whatever. You can enjoy work, duty, etc. if you get your mind and heart into it. I think sb has said "Don't do what you want to do, but love what you have to do" ... words to that effect. As with many things ... I agree with what he SAYS (not does).
A Sparrow 340
06-14-2001 09:41 AM
I
Questor 339
06-14-2001 08:00 AM
Hi Andries:
Your question is a good one. I am not a theologian, but what I have realized from life experience is that God gave us life so as to appreciate it as something precious. I believe that there is a balance between loving and enjoying life and graceful living, through sacrifice. That's the hard part. To live means to be able to navigate the waters; knowing when to enjoy and appreciate the moment, and when it's time to do the laundry, sacrifice for your fellow human or family. Life is an all-encompassing process where one has to constantly choose, and negotiate this.
I think one chooses according to one's abilities. But I think all of us have to enjoy life, and will be called upon at various times to rise above ourselves and sacrifice for the good and survival of our fellow humans.
It's really easy to follow the selfish path, or the selfless path. Then no brainwork is required. Then the will is not required. Decisions are made for you. It takes more character to make personal choices in these matters. In so doing, one carves out his or her own little lifepath.
Of course that's my opinion. Perhaps someone else has some wisdom on this subject.
Questor 338
06-14-2001 07:48 AM
Hey Steelmouse; First, the name; what does it mean?
Secondly; Pssst: This is a board moderated and created to discuss ssb's conduct, and help those who are leaving ssb's cult. If you need spiritual support so that you can continue to pursue your undying faith to ssb, then go to the multitudinous sites for ssb on the internet.
I think Tony's posts are helpful in that they are posted from the perspective of an ex-devotee. They are not whole treatises.
In fact I think Anthony is moderating a very balanced board.
By the way, was Pittard an EHV teacher? In Australia too?
Andries 337
06-14-2001 07:41 AM
No grace without sacrifice?
ref message 325 by Tony O'Clery who wrote 'Life is to be enjoyed not endured -- something totalist groups usually don't teach!'
SSB said 'No grace without sacrifice' in his famous interview to the Blitz magazine in 1976.
I think those statements exclude each other. Which is true? And why? How to find the truth?
Thanks in advance.
Kind regards, Andries
Steelmouse28 336
06-14-2001 06:59 AM
Marswalker
You posted this:
Marswalker 305
06-12-2001 08:56 PM ET (US)
Edited by author 06-12-2001 08:58 PM
Barry Pittard asked me to post this letter, which he is making widely available throughtout the world. Love,
Marswalker
Posting continues..former teacher... sb is an abuser... students..... etc...etc..
Why doesn't Barry Pittard post this for himself?
He has an internet connection doesn't he?
Steelmouse28
Anthony 335
06-14-2001 02:30 AM
Steelmouse
We have proved before on past message boards that one of the greatest helps to devotees has been assistance with recognising the 'withdrawal' symptoms they are experiencing is common to all those who leave the clutches of 'sb.'
Some of these symptoms apply specifically to leaving 'sb', such as intense fear that they may be leaving 'God.' But many of the symptoms are standard feelings people have when 'leaving a cult.' Therefore, though they may not mean much to you, letting people know these things does help.
It certainly helps more than a post trying to show how good 'sb' is with opening a hospital and getting water in - when we have all heard what exactly goes on in that hospital and what happened to the so called water project. And even if they were perfect and functioning properly, if I was a guru I would make sure I did a few local good deeds. This would probably be enough for me to bother with forever (aside from the odd bribe here and there), to make me sound 'good' - so I could get on with my real task of drawing in my energy source (people).
I don't know why people expect 'bad' people to show themselves to be bad. Most of them cover it all up very well. Look at the politicians trying to lead us to a one world government.
Although it may be of interest to some people, I guess it doesn't really matter whether 'sb' was molested as a child or how he is physically built, whether he has diabetes or not, etc. None of these things justify in any way his behaviour. What matters is that he continues to molest the kids around him and has managed through fear and bribes to keep the truth from getting out for a long time.
A Sparrow 334
06-14-2001 01:33 AM
Sam ... There's a difference between hearsay and signed testemonies. How does anybody know anything for sure unless they witnessed it with their own eyes? And even then it could have been a hallucination. When you hear and read the same thing over and over from people ... using their own names ... and thereby risking ridicule, embarrasment, and accusations of lying ... you can be pretty sure it's true.
C&B ... please, please answer when I ask you HOW you know stuff (raju's diabetes, that he was molested, etc).
Alexandra ,,, Thanks for the list of books. I hadn't heard of a lot of them and I'm going to check into them.
Steelmouse28 333
06-14-2001 12:11 AM
I thought this was a moderated board.
What is the difference between Tony's useless post on cult debriefing and posting a discourse here? Both are forms of spam, is not one of the purposes of moderation the detection and elimination of spam?
Cock & Bull 332
06-13-2001 11:53 PM
Sai Baba According to Haraldsson
Although, through ignorance, many Sai Baba devotees exaggerate his place in the scheme of things (more or less in the same way that the god-man Jesus was exaggerated by his followers into being one-third of the Christian religionÆs one-and-only God), Sai Baba, himself, is at least sometimes guilty of having imagined himself to be more than he is. For example, Haraldsson quotes the experience of M. Krishna, who was close to Sai Baba during the mid 1950s (in this example, Sai Baba, roughly thirty years old at the time, wrongly imagines that he is competent to perform a minor operation):
Once I had myself tonsillitis and a very sore throat. Then swami said he would operate upon my tonsils. ... He waved his hand, and a knife came seemingly out of nowhere. ... [Sai Baba then ôoperates,ö causing some bleeding. That evening, after the operation, Krishna went to a friend who was a doctor, and Krishna told the doctor that Sai Baba had operated and removed his tonsils. Krishna then says what that doctorÆs response was:] ... He remarked something like this: æWhat do you say? You are a fool and he is a liar.Æ [Krishna still had his tonsils, and they were removed in a hospital a few years later.]
Haraldsson, Erlendur. Modern Miracles: An Investigative Report on Psychic Phenomena Associated with Sathya Sai Baba. Hastings House, Mamaroneck NY, 1997.
Dr. Sabapathy Siva 331
06-13-2001 10:56 PM
REPLY TO SAMPATH;
Reg.Dr.Haraldsson's book;
You missed my point, Hari. I was quoting Dr.H's work for his sincerity and scientific way of the investigations compared to some couch potatoe investigators. His ten yr.work of investigating is commendable and deserves recognition. You didn't quote him. Instead you mentioned and recommended D.B's.work which is a K.G. level work. This suited your purpose and I understand that. We will never prove anything reg.SB one way or another by our intellectual and or idiotic catharsis of discussions.. In one of his books late Kasturiwrote about Radhakrishnan's death. Prior to printing this news in Sanathana Sarathi, while reading his article Baba told him to print the word -dead- in his article with in quotatation marks as "dead". Kasturi didn't understand why SB-to speak in your vernacular- was asking him to do so. Nevertheless he carrired out SB's order. Why do you think SB asked K to do so? It is my own conclusion that R.K.didn't actually die but had an near death experience.!!! You may not agree with me and perhaps you can share your interpretation of this action of SB. Did SB know this..? Of course. Yes. Then why didn't inform the relatives so.?? You see, the Divine acts, teaches, performs, lives on differrent levels. The same essage is given in different ways according to the receipient. Each one of us interpret Him according to our INDIVIDUAL levels of seeing and seeking. I am posting my article reg,this seperately. Jesus did the same.
Incidently do you know that many reputable biblical scholars write that Lazarus didn't really die..he was in deep coma/sleep. Pesonally I believe so. I've a reference from another scholar who writes with references that Jesus had an 'affair' with Lazarus on the same evening of L's resurrection.!!! These are Ivy League teachers of biblical theology. I don't believe Jesus was a gay.
Reg.Walter Cowan; I admit that it is confusing. Does SB lie.? One girl in the Dharsan in P.N.shouted at Him saying to SB, 'you are a lier'. SB smilingly answered her, 'I was a bigger lier when I was Krishna'. I have a saying in my mother tongue-Tamil-which means;
IF A LIE CAN CAUSE BENEFICIAL EFFECT TO THE RCEIVER BEYOND DOUBT, THEN IT BELONGS TO TRUTH.'
-Poet Thhiruvalluvar-2000 B.C.
Dr. Sabapathy Siva 330
06-13-2001 10:55 PM
FOR YOUR EYES ONLY...SB MARCHES...
Subject; 3rd Hospital Bangalore
>
>Times of India online
>June 11. 2001
>Bangalore
>
>Sai Baba lays foundation for another hospital
>
>By B.S. Manu Rao
>
>BANGALORE: Sri Sathya Sai Baba on Sunday laid the
>foundation stone for hospital building close to the
>Sri Sathya Sai Super-speciality Hospital in Whitefield on the >occasion of the silver jubilee of general hospital.
>Like all other welfare institutions of the Sai
>Organisations, the new hospital, too, will treat
>patients free. The hospital is expected to be
>inaugurated on November 23, the birthday of Baba.
>
>Baba promised water to the people of Bidar and Bijapur districts in >deference to the request by Chief Minister S.M. Krishna who was present on >the occasion. The Sri Sathya Sai Drinking Water Project
>in Andhra Pradesh is helping some 1,000 villages of
>the Rayalseema region.
>
Tony O'Clery 329
06-13-2001 09:50 PM
Hey Sam, you know well how sb does his conjuring. You told me yourself that somebody came to your house and demonstrated how sb does it all...
My decision to leave sb was made over a ten day period, culminating on the last day of 1999. Faye was in the same centre as I in Brisbane, that was a start to enquiry and of course I met and talked to David.
However the real answer came from within, and looking back of my stays in pn, in a new light.
Also many of the contradictions that you, yourself pointed out on the sainet helped as well. ..Tony.
Dr. Sabapathy Siva 328
06-13-2001 05:50 PM
REPLY TO ALL;
If you are claiming your information reg.SB is the truth...pl.verify its authenticity prior to brodcasting. As these are serious issues, guessing and depending on hersay is senseless. I do appreciate your concerns and helping tendancy. Most of you had been followers of SB for some time. You had your own reasons to trust Him at that time, be that may His miracles, teachings, social service, etc. Sexual abuse allegations has turned you against Him. But I wonder how come all of a sudden He becomes a cheat, fraud, magician, a criminal, etc. even though you believed once in one of these special traits and hence you admired Him. Is it b/c your faith was not strong enough to begin with.? Just curious.
A sudden enlightenment seems to have dawned on some selected souls to warn the rest of unfortunate ones. How lucky you are all to be forewarned of the impending calamity.? Please share your story of the blessed turn for emancipation from the evil.
Dr. Sabapathy Siva 327
06-13-2001 05:50 PM
REPLY TO TONY;
Based on your honest admittance of spreading news-SB is a hermophredite-which you say came from hermophredite devotees is the kind of mischief being broadcast reg.SB's 'misdemenors', championed by yourself and others. Further you quote Tal Brook, whom SB addressed on his very first stepping the soil of Prasanthi 'you rascal..I've been waiting for you' (as admmitted by Tal in his book, 'Avatar of the Night') just like Jesus predicted reg.Juda's betrayl...Tal at that time was torn asunder by the Western materealism and an unhappy hippie saturated with the most powerful LSD (as admitted by himself in his book) envisioned SB as Arthanariswar (half Shiva, half Sakthi) imagined to possess
bi sexual organs and so convinced himself at the end that he was right. He a dmits that he heard words 'lithium..thorium...' (drugs) in the bhajans sung in a.m. nagasankeerthan instead of God's name in the bhajan. BY ALL COUNTS HE IS THE MOST UNTRUSTWORTHY AND LEAST CREDIBLE WITNESS. After he leaves SB while he was praying in a church in Bangalore FOR THE FIRST TIME IN HIS LIFE he writes that he became a born again Christian. SB HAD TRANSFORMED THIS LSD KID INTO A BETTER CHRISTIAN WHO LATER GOES TO STUDY THEOLOGY. WHAT A YEOMAN SERVICE BY SB...He owes his life to SB. So please dump Tal's tales along with that of Dale and Lane...the last one being yet another 'lazy prof' who writes from sitting in his SD Chair..I've a friendly suggestion..'PLEASE GET OFF YOUR BUTTS' travel to see SB in action if you haven't done it already..and than vocalise, which is being scientific, sensible and matured mentality.
Best wishes.
At 11:34 AM 13/06/01 -0500, you wrote:
>
>
>
< replied-to message removed by QT >
Dr. Sabapathy Siva 326
06-13-2001 05:50 PM
REPLY TO KRISHNA;
You wrote;
" If i have time, i will tell the past lives of all those who have >interacted with me by looking at the timings of their postings >when they reply to me."
WELCOME ABOARD THE 11th.avatar of post kali yuga...the true omniscient...Thank you for your ammusing assertion..............SB incarnates in KRISHNA...
Tony O'Clery 325
06-13-2001 04:55 PM
Someone you know may need this advice;.. Tony.
Recovery Issues and What to Expect.
If you've had exit-counseling you have had a concentrated time to discuss and reflect upon your involvement in a psychologically abusive group, your personal issues that affected your vulnerabilities and your spiritual issues. But you
also need to realize that, for some, it has been somewhat like chipping off at an iceberg. Your "recovery" rate and level is highly dependent upon a variety of factors: the number of years spent in a cultic environment, the destructiveness of your specific group ala doctrine and practice, your level of involvement within the cultic milieu, your psychological health prior to group/relationship involvement, and strength of relationship to family and friends outside of the group, among others. Because of ex-counseling you learned how the group manipulated your "self" and squeezed you into their mold or their "clone." How motivated are you to continue to find your true self with all of its goals and aspirations? How patient are you to allow this process to take the time needed to be "inside out" recovery?
Here are a few reminders to help you along the way:
Don't expect family and friends to totally "understand" your experience. It was your experience, not theirs. Continue to explain what happened to you in the best ways you can.
Don't be surprised if, after a while, people remind you that you need to "move on" with your life ... or "forget what lies behind"... or think you are obsessing on your experience. Try to explain the nature of trauma ---that the continual review of the experience helps you "process" it and give meaning to it, and you would appreciate their patience with you.
Join a support group to have a body of friends who have gone through similar cultic experiences as yourself and attend some local meetings or national conferences to continue in understanding what happened to you, and hear the uplifting stories of others who have grown through their group exodus.
Expect numerous "ups and downs." Just when you think you've gotten a handle on it all, you may have some moody, confused times of wondering why you left or why this happened to you or how can you ever get past this experience. This is very normal and typical. Everyone has up and down days and weeks. Look at the overall "graph of growth and resolve."
Enjoy reading books re: 1) other peoples' experiences in an exploitive, abusive group or 2) about nothing that has to do with abusive groups, just topics you want to explore for a change like gardening, poetry, history or whatever would help you feel like a valuable living human on this exciting planet.
Schedule additional counseling/consultation with someone knowledgeable about survivors from exploitive, deceptive groups and their needs if you need continued help in sorting out any psychological trauma, or if you run into some obstacles. Like surgery is to the body, healing takes time afterwards, i.e. you must pace yourself and seek medical attention if needed. An expert can help and you'll be back on the road to healing once again. Just don't panic. You have not lost all that you once gained. Recovery takes time!
Continue to confront those cognitive lies that may periodically rear their ugly head. Write them down, then challenge the irrationality of the inherent errors. Restart that journal or begin to review your thinking bit by bit. Continue to
"deprogram" the land mines that might still remain in your mind as the thoughts (lies) surface in your thinking.
Get involved in activities you've always dreamed of or take an evening class of interest at your local community college. Life is to be enjoyed not endured -- something totalist groups usually don't teach! Surround yourself with fun, positive, enjoyable activities and people!
Be tolerant of parental or spousal concerns that you might return to the group. Assure them you will not. Assure them that your concern is for your friends inside the group, reminding yourself that you need to heal and have some strength and resolve before you can be of any real help to others. Remember, you
are first accountable for yourself.
Remind yourself daily that you are a special, uniquely created individual that deserves love and appreciation because YOU do! Learn to see and feel that for yourself.
Realize the value of what you've learned about life from your experience; help others grow.
Krishna_744 324
06-13-2001 02:49 PM
Krishna Speaks to Terrie:
It seems I am not welcome here, too many objections to my posts, and My dear Terrie I dont want You in an embarassing situation.
It seems YOu know yoganandha too well. Do you know His past lives and HIS line of Gurus? Is there any use in knowing them? Jesus cured cerebral palsy.. Tapping into the past lives, identifying thier past karma ,and absorbing them.. Sri Yoganandha and Sri Yukteswar Babaji and Lahiri Mahasaya.. they are along the clan of Lord Shiva..(shiva and krishna..are they one? this in itslef a separate discussion)
A game of Chess.. Only one Queen ..ONe arjuna..
rau is well castled..One needs ot dislodge the aura..
even a pride of lions needs a Mufasa..The leader, the arjuna..Luvdeglobal is the Arjuna of exsaidevotees.
Members feel I am posting My personal messages here. I have My clubs which I have been neglecting and travelling towars others..
KRISHNA BIDS BYE TO TERRIE:
Yes Terie I leave this meduim to your friends here who dont like me which doesnt make any differnce to me. I say bye to you in this medium but
we have other ways
yes **Krishna speaks to Terrie** will continue in a formless way to a form ful way..
As regards my Chart.. I am not bound by Zodiacs and astorlogy.. If you wish I can give my very first birthdate in this physical life of mine..but i have many birthdays..so which you want?
How do you calcualte the time of birth? when the Head descends or when the umbilical cord is tied and severed or when I made my first cry? My time of birth has a range lasting 50 minutes. I know when I am going to die as per my chart and I also know I am going to extend that life span as I wish Yes Dear Terrie I can extend my 78 yrs life span in this life and leave my soul as I wish.
GOOD BY TO YOU TERRIE
KRISHNA WILL NOT COME IN THIS SITE ANY MORE AS MEMBERS HERE DONT LIKE ME AND I LEAVE YOU IN PEACE
06-13-2001 02:49 PM
Deleted by topic administrator 06-14-2001 12:30 AM Hari Sampath 322
06-13-2001 01:51 PM
To Dr Sabapathy Siva :
Here is more from your own trusted source Dr Haraldsson's book "Miracles are my visiting card" :
This refers to the "resurrection" of a person called Radhakrishnan, by Sai Baba.
*******************************************
Mrs. Radhakrishna's Account, As Reported by Dr. Haraldsson:
During a stay in Puttaparti in the early 1950's, Mr. Radhakrishna had become seriously ill with gastric trouble so that he could not pass his urine and also had further complications. The next day he became semiconscious and his condition was very critical. The following morning around 11:00 he lost consciousness. According to Mrs. Radhakrishna, no life signs, including breathing and pulse, could be detected, and the members of his family who were present (she and Mr. Hemchand) firmly believed that he had expired.
By the next morning, the body had become cold and there had been no observable signs of life for over 20 hours. But Baba told them that they should not worry, that nothing had happened. When he at last came down from his room, he asked them all to leave the room where Mr. Radhakrishna was lying; he then closed the door and was alone with him for a minute or two. When he opened the door, the group standing outside saw Mr. Radhakrishna sitting up in his bed. `People were so flabbergasted that everyone fell to his feet.' That was the oriental way in which Mrs Radhakrishna finished her account. Mr. Radhakrishna recovered on this occasion, but died a few years later apparently of the same disease.
Haraldsson, Miracles Are My Visiting Cards, p. 248, 249.
*************************************
Please note that Radhakrishnan was supposed to have been stone cold dead for 20 hours by the time Sai Baba came, according to Mrs Radhakrishnan, who was there all the time.
Now let us see what Radhakrishnan's daughter says in her diary :
***************************************
Diary Record Kept by Vijaya Hemchand (Radhakrishna's Daughter):
During the previous night all of us gave up hopes regarding our father. That was a very horrible and frightening night, like that of cosmic dissolution (death). Our father was uttering the names of departed people and was saying that he too would join them. Neither was his speech coherent nor was he conscious. He had (long since) stopped taking food. All of us started weeping. In the midst of our agony and even in the face of this threat to his life, we took refuge in Lord Sai. We held his feet firmly in our minds and had strong faith in him. The moment we saw his beautiful enchanting face we forgot all our sufferings and became enthraled by bliss.
He came down and closed the doors to the room. He was inside for ten minutes. I could not control my grief. I was afraid of what others might think. All those in the shrine (Prashanti Nilayam) were staying there motionless and were anxiously waiting for the outcome. After ten minutes he opened the door...came out brushing his hands together, saw my mother, and told her: `I have given life to your husband. I have given it to him. The hurdle is over, there is no more fear.' As he was saying this, we held his feet and washed them with our tears. `Alas, my innocent mother! She is frightened!' So saying, he looked at our faces and said: `None of you had faith that he was going to survive, did you? You go in and see.'
Our father, who had been lying unconscious for three days without speech and sight, looked at all of us and smiled.
Quoted in Haraldsson, p. 249-50.
*****************************************************
Note that the daughter says that Radhakrishnan was "uttering the names of departed people and was saying that he too would join them", just the night before the morning of the "resurrection" ( SB came into the room in the morning).
My question is how come a person dead with no pulse for 20 hours can utter names and mumble ? How can a stone cold dead person talk deliriously ?
Here is more about the "reliable" accounts of the Raja of Venkatagiri, on the same incident :
*****************************************
The Raja of Venkatagiri had told Hislop that Radhakrishnan was dead for 6 days, and the body was begining to decompose !!!!
Hislop's Account:
...Baba's powers of resurrection are known to other devotees. The Raja of Ventagiri [sic] told me of his experience when, some twenty or so years ago, he witnessed Baba's resurrection of a man dead some six days in whom body decomposition was taking its normal course. About these mysteries one can make no comment; they are outside the customary human experience.
Now let us see what the same Raja of Venkatagiri had told Haraldsson :
>>The Rajah of Venkatigiri's Account, as Reported by Haraldsson:
The present Raja of Venkatigiri was in Puttaparti at that time. When asked about this incident, he told me that he remembered it well. He had been with the swami when Mr. Radhakrishna's relative came to tell Sai Baba that he was dying. About an hour after Mr. Radhakrishna allegedly died, the swami came down from his room at last and said to them: `Don't fear, nothing has happened.' They waited outside the room while the swami went in. When he opened the door and called them, they saw that Mr. Radhakrishna was alive and talking slowly. The Raja did not see Mr. Radhakrishna while he was allegedly dead.
Haraldsson, p. 249.
*******************************
Here the Raja of Venkatagiri has said that Sai Baba "resurrected" Radhakrishna, just one hour after his death.
Dr Siva, you claim to be a logical person. If you objectively apply that logic to these events, you will have to see (as your trusted source Haraldsson did) that Sai Baba NEVER resurrected Radhakrishnan, and also that Radhakrishnan never died at all.
When this is the case with all "major and huge" miracles like Walter Cowan and Radhakrishnan, and when it can be clearly proved (factually and logically) that Sai Baba was deliberately lying, what else remains to be said about the remaining "smaller" miracles ??
Thank you,
Hari Sampath.
Andries 321
06-13-2001 12:46 PM
Edited by author 06-13-2001 01:10 PM
Ref message 319 by Hari Sampath
Hislop was convinced that SSB was lying and he continued to be a devotee? This is mind blowing.
I know from experience that the disciple can have a doglike devotion for his owner/guru unable to break the bond unless the disciple feels there is no option left. And by then the disciple may be emotionally damaged. May be this is the reason for Hislop's behavior.
Kind regards, Andries
Tony O'Clery 320
06-13-2001 12:34 PM
Hey Sam: The information I have is second hand of course, but it came from transvestites who were sb devotees. That sb is an hermaphrodite, I'm not sure but didn't Tal Brooke mention this also. There is no point in being prejudiced against anyone of that condition, but it is interesting that the original asuric descents were hermaphrodites. However I think that sb is just a dirty old molestor and crook/fraud that's all...Tony
Hari Sampath 319
06-13-2001 11:57 AM
To Dr Sabapathy Siva :
Since you respect Haraldsson very much, and presumably respect Dr John Hislop too for intellectual honesty, here is something for you tp ponfder about :
This is a letter written by John Hislop to David Lane on July 17th 1988, with regard to the Walter Cowan resurrection, which Sai Baba has been claiming over the years publicly. In fact this so called "resurrection" was the event that really launched Sai Baba in the West , in the early 1970's.
********************************************
Hislop's Response to David Lane, 17-7-88: Mr. David Christopher Lane Del Mar Press
Del Mar CA 92014
Dear David:
It was very kind of you to send me the Research Issue of your most excellent journal UNDERSTANDING CULTS AND SPIRITUAL MOVEMENTS. Many thanks...
Dr. Heraldsson's conclusion is that the story is false because there is no objective evidence that Cowan died, and that statements made about the incident are themselves false. On the other hand, unless I am to be considered as either lying or in error when I quoted Sathya Sai Baba, there is the other side. Since I did quote Sathya Sai Baba correctly there being several conversations between us on the topic it really boils down to the issue of whether or not Sathya Sai Baba was lying. Dr. Heraldsson's conclusion has to be taken, I believe, that because of statements made by the hospital's doctor and by Judge Damadar Rao the proper conclusion is that Cowan did not die and therefore Baba lied when he told me (and others) that Cowan had died and had been brought back to life, not once only but on three occasions. I do not see how this inference can be escaped.
***********************************************************
As can be clearly seen by all, the absolute conclusions of both Hislop and Haraldsson were : Sai Baba LIED.
Thank you,
Hari Sampath.
Cock & Bull 318
06-13-2001 10:29 AM
I am still amazed when people tell me about the power's of Raju.In Kerala,there is a place called Chottanikerrai.Here you can witness to some bizarre going on's of the human pysche.People possessed with some spirit doing stuff which at times you will be reminded of Raju's work.In fact you can learn Tantrism from Masters here.You can materialise,read minds,capture women for sexual purposes at ease,etc.India is a reservoir for spiritual aspirants.In fact the recent Kumbh Mela just concluded would give you the idea of mix of Sadhu's.
One report from the Mela said,A Sadhu by virtue of his Yogic Power's,pulled with his Penis a car with passenger's like the commissioner & family seated,to a considerable distance in the open glare of people.
Now if Raju's intention was noble to raise the Kundalini Shakthi of boys,he could have done it in the open in public and claimed it as MIRACLE.Instead in the garb of raising kundalini shakthi Raju has accomplished to satisfy his sexual need thru the boys.Raju is a pervert.Raju is GAY.Raju f....d,Parvathamma on July 7 1945.Now ,why he prefers men to women is because he is dis-oriented creep,who was sexually abused as a child.
Cock & Bull 317
06-13-2001 10:09 AM
There are evidences surfacing that Raju himself was a victim of sexual molestations as a young man.Raju became more dis-oriented as the years passed on and is extremely clever in covering his mis-deeds.Raju by virtue of his karma accumulated during his previous birth has fooled starting with the people of Puttaparthi as Re-incarnation of Shirdi Sai Baba.Very soon Raju will be charged and held responsible for his illegal activities apart from sexual mis-conduct.
The reason why political leader's keep quiet to his non-sense is because of the money power and influence he has built thru his network of illegal activities.The United State Government is onto him,as many US citizens have been victim of his sexual perversion.The CIA & Mossad have a file on Raju which are extremely sensitive,which when exposed can bring the downfall of this impostor.
Diplomatic channels are at work with the Indian counterparts as to work out the legalities to bring this culprit Raju to book and jail him.
Anthony 316
06-13-2001 09:43 AM
Sorry Krishna
If you wish to make a clear valid point applicable to the discussion here, that is fine. Otherwise all these posts are a 'no go'.
Anonymous 315
06-13-2001 09:06 AM
Anthony,
I wonder if we need to limit Mr. RKMSR's posts to a certain number or length. I find he takes up too much time with stuff that is of a personal nature, unintelligible, and off-topic. And irritating (of course that is not a legitimate reason, but the other three reasons are.
Please consider.
314
06-13-2001 05:39 AM
Deleted by topic administrator 06-13-2001 09:39 AM
313
06-13-2001 05:31 AM
Deleted by topic administrator 06-13-2001 09:39 AM
312
06-13-2001 05:21 AM
Deleted by topic administrator 06-13-2001 09:42 AM Alexandra 311
06-13-2001 03:24 AM
To A Sparrow, message 300.
The book you refer to "Of water and the spirit" is written by Malidoma Patrice Some. A very interesting book indeed of a contemporary shaman.
Very interesting are also "Spiritwalker, message from the future" and "Medicine maker" by Hank Wesselman, also some kind of shaman, who met more than once a future incarnation of his.
"Miracles & other realities" by Lee Pulos & Gary Richman is about the Brazilian Thomaz Morais Coutinho who can do incredible paranormal things.
I wouldn't count too much on Carlos Castaneda's books. He might have mixed facts and fiction which makes him, in my opinion, less credible.
All those books broaden/widen the perspective when it comes to miracles (and reincarnation). It's not only Sai Baba who does miraculous things. Which doesn't mean that Sai Baba is an ordinary miracle maker either.
Anthony 310
06-13-2001 02:38 AM
Thank you everyone for all you bring to this discussion board.
(Message 302 deleted as it was duplicated in 303)
Questor 309
06-12-2001 11:21 PM
Hi Hari,
Please feel free to post my old post. I am honored that you should choose to do so.
Warm wishes,
Questor
A Sparrow 308
06-12-2001 10:27 PM
Sam ... I have never said that sb was an hermaphrodite! I would never pretend to know such a thing. Such people do exist, and I certainly wouldn't blame them or scorn them any more than I would anyone with any other kind of birth defect or anomaly. So even if I knew it was true I wouldn't ridicule him for it. But, I don't know it and would never be concerned with it or mention it. The only subject I addressed was that he sexually pursues males who do not welcome his advances (as well as some who probably do). I've read signed testemonies by people who've had this experience. I even recieved in the mail (not email) a letter from the mom of one victim and the description he entered of the encounter in his diary. A very good friend has personally spoken with the parents of other victims. If there were just one or two or three cases, I might think they were fabrications of the young men's imaginations or that they had a grudge, but there are too many from too many parts of the world to be ignored.
I do think that sb is extremely intelligent. He could go on Jeopardy! (Alex, I'll take Vedic scriptures for 500) that doesn't make him God.
Dr. Sabapathy Siva 307
06-12-2001 09:15 PM
REPLY TO H.SAMPATH;
Dale Beyerstein's work reg.SB is like a blind man leading the blind. His criticism of SB accomplished from viewing few videos ad books on SB is quiet unbecoming of a university teacher and a scientist., It is the work of an armchair critic who has never seen SB in action, to my knowledge, perhaps aiming for quick silver. Compare him to Dr.Haraldsson who spent 10 yrs. in studying SB by on site investigations spending his own money and published the book 'Modern Mircles'. Whom do you value and respect..? I dumped Dale a decade ago...
Dr. Sabapathy Siva 306
06-12-2001 09:15 PM
REPLY TO H.SAMPATH;
At 04:04 PM 12/06/01 -0500, you wrote:
For somebody who became a guru at age 14, he has a vast database that he is able to tap into - Telugu poems, Vedic slokas etc. Yes, I am aware of all the discrepancies noted in the skeptics site. But this is not a person who was sequestered with books till he was 30 or 40 years old. Given that, he is an impressive speaker on most occasions.
Any comments?
' THE FINITE CAN NOT UNDERSTAND THE INFINITE'
' NEITHER THE BIRD CAN FATHOM THE DEPTH OF THE OCEAN NOR THE FISH CAN MEASURE THE HEIGHT OF THE SKY."
How about a high school drop out saying so....how did Jesus teach scriptures at age 12.? How did Jesus predict the betrayl by Judas, denial by Peter..or perhaps you don't believe in such things as most of the time is being consumed in analysing others and having no time for a self analysis..I admit that I don't know about myself and it is waste of time for me in trying to understand such enlightened souls like the QT's. Have a good day. See good. Do good. Be good. Neither I am all good nor the others are all bad.
Marswalker 305
06-12-2001 08:56 PM
Edited by author 06-12-2001 08:58 PM
Barry Pittard asked me to post this letter, which he is making widely available throughtout the world. Love,
Marswalker
TO MY DEAR FORMER WHITEFIELD COLLEGE STUDENTS,
I taught you English for two years in 1978-79. These were wonderful experiences.
More recently, Sathya Sai Baba, founder of Whitefield College outside Bangalore, south India, is being accused of large scale sexual abuse of boys and young men of many countries.
Whether through my own naivetQ or lack of experience as a teacher, I was ignorant of any immoral sexual harassment perpetrated upon you or your classmates by Sathya Sai Baba. I am sad that I did not know of any actual or potential abuses, and only strong, sustained action to stop any further abuses by him will alleviate this sadness. The evidence very strongly indicates that he continues these abuses.
As I reflect on those years I spent with you at the Whitefield College, I wonder:
Did you then yourself feel that whole families, even communities, would have disbelieved and scorned you had you spoken out?
Were you concerned that your education, career and marriage prospects would fail if you spoke out?
Was it impossible for you to reconcile your beliefs with your knowledge or suspicion that the one you believed to be "God" was a sexual abuser? Did some of you think that God would manifest in the guise of a molester of children and young men?
Did you secretly despise what was, it seems, happening to your beautiful, tender, and trusting innocence - yet did not know how to stop it?
Several of us, as former, long-time devotees, are now global co-ordinators in response to the alleged abuses. Increasing numbers of Indian and overseas persons have shared with us what they swear to be their direct experiences of sexual abuses by Sathya Sai Baba. They tell us that they found the experience most abhorrent, confusing and even traumatic.
Many of the descriptions, in shocking graphic detail, are heartrending to hear in person or on the phone, and to read in their affidavits and other testimonies. Expert psychologists and police have shown us how experienced sexual abusers operate the world over. The same patterns occur in countless worldwide reports that allege sexual misconduct by Sathya Sai Baba.
I was not able to stand up on behalf of what seems to have been your horribly betrayed innocence back in those days. However, I will - both openly and privately - do my best to represent that innocence now, and on an international scale.
I trust we will assist each other to uphold Truth, Right Conduct, Peace and Love. (These are such easy words to say! Yet, work and courage are required to uphold them).
We co-ordinators are quiet about issues such as numbers and whereabouts of alleged victims or witnesses. On websites and elsewhere, defenders of Sathya Sai Baba and his assistants deride us for not producing credible witnesses. Time will most decidedly tell!
The real reason for our silence is the protection of those persons (or their families) by whom the allegations are being made. Outstanding professional abuse counsellors, Interpol, foreign ministries, legal and other consultants are closely assisting our efforts. With ever-increasing strength, former devotees from many countries will present to the world and the law courts, extremely powerful evidence of terrible abuse of spiritual power.
This abuse was by one who seemed to be of the calibre of a Sri Krishna or Sri Rama or Jesus or Buddha. Yet, none of these illustrious spiritual leaders were ever suspected or accused of any such dreadful crimes against minors and young men.
Beloved former students, some of you and I were actually present during ineffably beautiful miraculous experiences that the rational mind will never comprehend. That is on the side of Light. It has promoted transformation. However, we are only whole persons when, fearlessly, we can look unflinchingly into the Darkness as well. This brings the greater transformation.
I welcome you, on a strictly private basis, to please contact me. Any information that you can provide concerning sexual or any other abuses by Sathya Sai Baba will be appreciated.
It is our duty as citizens to ensure that sexual abuse and other crimes are made accountable. No matter what abilities a rare, super phenomenal, charismatic individual may possess, let us be sure: God will never manifest as a vast scale, serial sexual abuser of boys and young men.
Barry Pittard, Australia
Dr. Sabapathy Siva 304
06-12-2001 07:55 PM
REPLY TO SPARROW;
" At 09:50 AM 12/06/01 -0500, you wrote: Dr. Siva ... No question that there is a connection between sex and divinity, but like anything else, sex can be misused. When an adult forces himself on an unwilling minor (or any unwilling person), that is clearly criminal. That is a human rights violation. End of argument."
REPLY;
Greestings: Hi..My nick name is Sam..pl.feel free to address me so if you wish. The sex allegations of SB HAVE TO BE proved in a court of law. Premanand took SB to court for smuggling gold. The case was thrown out of the court after the first hearing. The judge couldn't even admit the hearing as there was no code to hear such a deed as SB does, i.e.materiallsing gold objects. SB is not a magician or any ordinary person. So this will not be the first time if a legal battle were to start. Recently two nuns were punished by the courts in Brussels for the attrocities committed by them in Rawanda. They escaped to Belgium, the former rulers of Rawanda, thinking that they could escape. Hence...if there is a will, there is a way. If proved by law, then I will lend sympathetic ears.
Last but not the least, pl.stay in one issue. Shouting in the screen saying SB is a hermopheredite, this and that only reveals the sick soul behind such expressions and dilutes the energy. Of course every one has the right to express what they wish. It is a sign of frustration. How does one know such ambiguous genitalia unless he/she peeped under SB's robe.? A prophet of genitalia perhaps.???? or a peeping Tom(n)y..???. Do you know that village kids in India even today including in big cities-run naked and SB's mother used to give him bath. What are the chances an ambiguous genitalia was missed by the relatives.?...Pl.think logically..
Regards.
Hari Sampath 303
06-12-2001 05:26 PM
A reference to "miracles" :
Dale Beyerstein's online analysis of Sai Baba "miracles" are perhaps the very best available anywhere. It is a must read for anyone attempting to reconcile the "miracles" with the now emerging facts about Sai Baba.
This can be accessed by clicking on "Sai Baba expose websites" on the left, in Keenan's site www.saibabaguru.com
302
06-12-2001 05:26 PM
Deleted by topic administrator 06-13-2001 02:33 AM Hari Sampath 301
06-12-2001 05:15 PM
This was an excellent post by questor, in response to caterham/ pax_gabriel.
I am reproducing this from the discussions board (without questor's permission, I hope she doesn't mind :-) )
*************************************************
Dear Caterhamuk,
There are a lot of postings here by ex-devotees who realize how easy it is to deceive when one is in the believer mode. Various explanations are given.
Some explain his powers as due to the energy of those that pray to him, and send him their energy. Others believe that he is just an ordinary conjurer.
Others think that he purposely "lets" you see him cheating so as to fool you, and make you aware of the inconsistency of "life", ie leela. In other words, he wants you to see him cheat...sometimes.
The Amasing Randi, a magician, has illustrated how tricks can be done, to deceive masses of people. Others understand that if you look at his face, you will not see the hands, as they work their tricks.
The videos show him cheating. It's quite clear.
The man has committed so many crimes, that it doesn't matter how he deceives, because he deceives in so many ways!
My own personal opinion centers on the question: Why does a spiritual leader need to resort to deception, and lies, and criminal behavior to "enlighten" people?
The answer: To me that's not an acceptable way to teach and inspire others.
Try and add up all the evidence. Reason it out and think with your heart AND mind.
Good luck and courage to you for opening your mind and heart to question.
Our ability to think and reason is what makes us human, and divine!
A Sparrow 300
06-12-2001 05:11 PM
Andries: I agree with you that some people made spiritual strides while worshipping raju. It was because of whom they believed him to be; not who he is. However, altered states of consciousness do not always indicate that a person has reached the top of the spiritual ladder. People can experiece a.s.c. by ingesting certain drugs or fasting, or sometimes just spontaneously.
Anyway, the real spiritual strides are those where we become more loving, patient, and kind.
You should read some books about shamanism and sorcery if you think a person has to be divine, or at least egoless and altruistic to have paranormal powers. The don Juan books are an example, and there's one called "Of Water and the Spirit" by an African chap whose name I can't recall. Sorcerers are not neccessarily any different than anyone else morally. It's like saying that only good people can make a lot of $$ or be musically gifted or lead a country.
Why would there be such things as black magic, witchcraft, or voodoo if only "pure" people could have paranormal abilities?
I knew a lady of about 70 who had lived in PN for many years. She had had vibhuti come out of her skin; she had emitted the smell of jasmine; she had had visions of herself as Sita and her beloved raju as Rama, and she finally became mentally ill and had to leave. When I knew her she was paranoid and confused; her hands shook violently and she was incontinent. She had to be medicated to control her symptoms. So, you see, it's not always onward and upward for those who seem to have received wonderful blessings.
Hari Sampath 299
06-12-2001 05:04 PM
This was another valid point raised by a person called HariOm on the discussions board :
*******************************************************
I would like to see responses to the query on the other board reagrding Baba's ability to give impressive discourses. I skimmed the latest Sanathana Sarathi, and I have to say that for someone who is besieged by a scandalous allegations, he seems to give pretty good talks. He also has a very good ability to state Vedic truths in simple, easy to follow examples.
For somebody who became a guru at age 14, he has a vast database that he is able to tap into - Telugu poems, Vedic slokas etc. Yes, I am aware of all the discrepancies noted in the skeptics site. But this is not a person who was sequestered with books till he was 30 or 40 years old. Given that, he is an impressive speaker on most occasions.
Any comments?
*********************************************************
My response to HariOm was :
*********************************************************
Dear HariOm and everyone,
Sathya Sai Baba is a highly intelligent, extremely knowledgeable, and gifted orator. He has the ability to absorb a lot of detail very quickly and assimilate the information. You must remember that although he never attended school beyond the age of 14, he has been constantly meeting with thousands of people from all walks of life, and from these people he observes, and absorbs.
For eg. he can put carefully worded questions to a cardiologist and from the answers, get a good idea of what is a mitral valve relapse. The next day, he will surprise a group with this specific information and do it in such a way that people think he knows a great deal more than what he actually does, and had known it since he was born. This is , in my opinion, Sai Baba's biggest ability/trick, which he uses extremely well to convey the impression of omniprescence , omniscience etc.
This exactly is what he does in the case of most "omniscience miracles" too.
Regarding the knowledge of Vedas, scholarly abilities, and ability to put things in easy examples, yes, he has all of them. Remember even Ravana , the asura was a master of the four vedas.
Actually, to my mind, Sai Baba is one of the most intelligent and capable persons I had ever come across.
He could have and certainly would have been a huge success as a politician , businessman and world leader had he wanted it.
But, unfortunately , he combined all these three things and added God to it, wanted to be God. He wanted fame , power, glory and the adulation of masses. This was the way he chose to attain it.
He has perverted sexual weaknesses and desires and an ever increasing greed and lust for fame, recognition and power.
How very very sad. Just think what all he could have been, and what he chose to be. I am positive that his life would indeed be a message to mankind, but not in the sense he means it. Instead , it will certainly reflect the great principle that untruth , deceit and adharma, will NEVER win, no matter how many people support it, or whatever resources such an effort has.
Love,
Hari Sampath.
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Hari Sampath 298
06-12-2001 04:42 PM
Dear Andries and others :
You have raised a very valid point . This was what I had posted on the sathyasaibabadiscussion club, about one year back.
I hope that it clarifies some of the issues connected with "how can SB be a fraud, and many people still experience miracles" .
Basically, I agree with Tony, about the "Total Faith" mental state triggering off sincere devotion, and a REAL GOD fulfilling that devotion, resulting in phenomena.
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Dear Sai Baba devotees,
I have some explanations for the phenomena that seem to be reported and attributed to Sai Baba, and also the trickery employed by Sai Baba.
1. There have been hundreds of first person eye witness accounts by a variety of people from all over the world that they have SEEN Sai Baba take things out of the cushions, from under his palms etc.
My explanation : If Sai Baba were God as he says he is, then he would NOT have to do it EVEN ONCE, so not only does it prove he is NOT what he says he is, but that also he is a big liar, has done it all the time, and has been caught doing it on more than a few occasions.
2. The phenomena reported by so many people from all over the world can be categorised as follows : Many of these incidents are probably true, while some could be misreported or exaggerated by faithful devotees who already are fully convinced that Sai Baba is God. With regards to the true manifestation phenomena, I believe it could be a result of the devotees' complete faith in God as "here and now" instead of "remote and far away", a faith that has been promoted due to their complete belief in "miracles done by Sai Baba" which were actually tricks that the devotees are not aware of. Also, this could also be due to the fact that a Genuinely existent Divine Power does fulfil this complete faith in God. This explanation could account for most of the "remote phenomena" that are being attributed to Sai Baba.
3. I am not personally aware of Sai Baba actually "materializing" photos of "past incidents" , but however this has to be completley and thoroughly investigated. My question is , if these "miracles" are meant as a means of strengthening faith, why has Sai Baba NEVER done anything that TOTALLY confirms his so called powers. Agreed , he does not have to subject himself to labaratory like settings, but surely there are several ways he can easily give conclusive evidence of his so called powers. This has to be seen in the context of there being hundreds of eye-witness accounts of Sai Baba cheating, as also very suspicious video evidence.
4. And what to say about ALL the accusations of sexual molestations by so many people ?? I have myself heard personal accounts from so many people for such a long time, that it is IMPOSSIBLE to dismiss them . Again, see all this in the overall context.
5. What about "divine predictions" completely failing and turning out to be utter nonsense ? I have personally experienced this so many times, Sai Baba has told me a lot of things about me, where even basic facts about me were totally incorrect. I have heard this from literally hundreds of people, that he has made elementary blunders about them. Seen against this background, how will a few "successful" predictions, that were quite general in nature , and quite likely to be guesses, ever make Sai Baba divine ?????
Thanks,
With love,
Hari Sampath.
***************************************************
Tony O'Clery 297
06-12-2001 03:57 PM
Andries: It is all in the mind, there is no God taking care of you when you die or whatever, it is all karma. There is only Nirguna Brahman. sb's miracles are non existant, they only thing he can do is astral travel, big deal!! Amrith and manifestations are kinetic events from spirits and people's own minds at a different level!
Your still holding on to the envelope Andries, let him go he is a useless fraud. Spiritual experiences come from people's own mind. Humpty Dumpty could evoke them....Tony.
Andries 296
06-12-2001 03:49 PM
Dear Tony and all, Ref message 291
If worshipping SSB can give no enlightment according to you how it is it posssible that some SSB devotees have experienced an altered state of consciousness by intense prayer and worshipping the form of SSB? It's not the first time in history that the devotee is more worth than the 'guru'. Imho it will hurt the 'guru' not the devotee. Shirdi Sai had a 'guru' who was less worth than Shirdi Sai as can be read in the Sri Sai Satcharita chapter 5. SSB/Kasturi said the same in the booklet Sandeha Nivarini and I think they are right although SSB/Kasturi said that it was the duty of the sadhaka to test the guru before accepting him. I refuse to believe in a a cruel God who punishes innocent people who happen to choose a 'guru' who has hidden dark sides.
Kind regards, Andries
Terrie 295
06-12-2001 03:28 PM
Edited by author 06-12-2001 03:29 PM
THE FINDINGS http://www.npi-news.dk/page152.htm
has not been coming up on our computers here. Are there any computer techies on this site who can look into this??
294
06-12-2001 02:48 PM
Deleted by topic administrator 06-12-2001 05:13 PM Anthony 293
06-12-2001 02:10 PM
Andries
I don't think it matters who has performed miracles and who hasn't. The criteria that needs looking at not who is said to have what, but what you have chosen to believe. Could it be that those people who believe that dark lords have no power to create (.......sinners can't create miracles) be WRONG? If they are, then people who work with negative power could also access occult powers. Personally, I don't doubt that for a moment. I don't find any fear in that possibility because I know the power of Light, and those who work with it, will always be stronger.
As I mentioned before, just because you know something is going to hurt someone intitially, is not a valid reason not to take action, if it seems that in the long run they will be far better off by knowing.
Andries 292
06-12-2001 01:53 PM
Miracles stories
I have read the explanations of Hari Sampath, David Bailey and others about the many exaggerations, sleight of hand, misunderstandings by devotees and plain deceit about the miracles. For me however it's still impossible to dismiss all miracles stories that sometimes even come from non-devotees. I have the impression that unless they are explained one by one devotees will not believe in the truth of the allegations. Ramakrishna and Thomas Aquinas whom I both respect highly wrote that a sinner can't do miracles. This has prolonged my devoteeship with several months.
A good example of a miracle that is imho beyond reasonable doubt is the amritha phenomenon in Mysore as described in Ram Das Awle's website. I think but it's up to Anthony of course that we can't ignore this subject.
Hope to hear from you.
Kind regards, Andries.
Tony O'Clery 291
06-12-2001 01:21 PM
Most anti sb devotees aren't pushing the ego. This isn't really an intellectual or spiritual exercise. We are tal king about a man who molest boys and men and is in charge of a great skimming scam, with tenctatles right into the Indian political scene. Many are justifiably angry and frustrated, some are grieving for their guru has died so to speak. In the end they will be far better off, for they will go within instead of going without following perverted charlatans like sb.
Devotees who stay in there and give their will to this asura, have the possibility of being enslaved on the astral like Easwaramma, and Iris Murphet. No moksha for them. sb is a lower astral being and cannot give or aid anyone to moksha.
Dr Sam Siva knows better than this and so do people close to him, but he like many others is frightened and needing this so called avatar...........
Andries 290
06-12-2001 12:37 PM
Ref my message 196 and A Sparrow's message 288
A Sparrow wrote
"Trying to decide who could handle this knowledge and ultimately benefit from it and who would be damaged beyond repair was mind numbing."
Well said, A Sparrow, and exactly because this material is very sensitive it's imho not right to send unrequested letters to devotees that you don't know.
Kind regards, Andries
A Sparrow 289
06-12-2001 10:56 AM
Lovdeglobal ... I saw a message form you on another board where you said that Kasturi wanted to leave raju during the last few years of his life. I'm not challenging it; I was just curious as to how it is known. Sometimes people say things w/o saying where they read it or from whom they heard it, and it leaves a feeling of frustration. Hope you see this. Thanx!
A Sparrow 288
06-12-2001 10:50 AM
Dr. Siva ... No question that there is a connection between sex and divinity, but like anything else, sex can be misused. When an adult forces himself on an unwilling minor (or any unwilling person), that is clearly criminal. That is a human rights violation. End of argument.
I don't think you have any idea of how difficult it was for some of us ex-devotees to leave the man and the group of people that we had loved and trusted so much. It was like finding out that a beloved spouse was a secret psychopath and having to divorce him/her for our own survival. Carrying around this information and knowing that it had the power to hurt others as much as, or in some cases more than, it had hurt us was almost unbearable. Trying to decide who could handle this knowledge and ultimately benefit from it and who would be damaged beyond repair was mind numbing. Speaking for myself, that's where these boards have been valuable. We feel like we can do some good by helping/supporting those who are willing to look a t the truth as well as find a channel for what's been churning in our own minds. We're not delighting in being negative or gossipy. I'm not Ms. Dharma. But that's no excuse to be silent when I'm aware that something really hurtful to other people is taking place. Should people have been "neutral" when Hitler was riding high? Should the struggle for civil rights in US never have been fought, or the movement for independence in India never have been enacted? Is it self destructive, un-humble, and immature to try to change a situation for the better or to help other people?
Do you have children, Dr. Siva?
Anthony 287
06-12-2001 03:07 AM
God help the world if we all took a neutral position! Fortunately, people care enough to speak out - against genetically modified foods, abuse of the ecological system, corrupt politics, and all the other areas where justice is not served. You can stand back all you like. We shall not. Not becuase we want to be 'right,' or we have a personal vendetta, secret agenda, or want to be a leader with a bunch of puppets following, or we have nothing better to do.
Each person who contributes posts of their experience with 'sb' does so simply because they care for their fellow human being. I believe it is done with great humility. When one surrenders and does what feels right deep within, that is humilty. That is allowing a higher order to take place and trusting that this will best serve. It is not a pleasurable task to place another view to devotees, when you realise they will be gutted. I guess it is not a pleasurable task for the guys who secretly go in to film the deplorable conditions battery chickens live in, but they do it so to show the world what is really going on.
For me 'sb' is an evil character. This is my truth and I know it is so. I am willing to learn in every area of my life, but there is nothing you can say that would change my viewpoint on this guy. That is because having examined the area on every level possible, I see the truth of him. It is only my viewpoint and certainly doesn't need to be yours or anyone else's. We need to each follow what is truth for us, having obtained that truth in a thorough manner. That is all we can ask of ourselves.
Dr. Sabapathy Siva 286
06-11-2001 10:56 PM
You wrote, quote;
" sex and divinity are connected and this in itself is a parate discussion." How about you posting your views on this in general and in particular with sexual allegations of SB.? Perhaps it will open up the think tanks of this group who in most of the time travel in the world of 'I' -an authoritanian audacity which blocks the realisation of the truth. In today' QT digest received, there are 53 'I' s, ...does this tell the problem..??? It is not with any Guru..it has to do with the self. Humility is the hall mark of maturity. If one wish to discuss any controversial issue..the first requierement is to withdraw to a NEUTRAL position and be willing to be corrected. The attitude portrayed by the anti SB group is one of I know it all..I am Mr.Dharma..etc. This self desructive difiant attitude is a sign of immaturity..with best wishes.